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  • #31
    .............................

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    • #32
      I personally have held for many tests. I have personally been kicked down to the ground several times during my own test. I feel that people who question the integrity or "initiation" of the TBA test should go test and then maybe they can tell me what it is or isnt. I have always had only the amount of meanness that Ajarn has dictated. While I have delved out more than my fair share of punishment to very talented fighters and martial artist, I have yet to have Ajarn drop the feather(all who know, know). I have even under my better judgement looked out at a couple of testees and with gritted teeth mumbled through my own mouthguard" Keep going, you got it". I have even questioned if they really needed to be abused the way I was abusing them. I have also wanted to keep abusing them for one reason or another.
      There is nothing like the accomplishment of making the test. I am a TBA instructor, I have been a fighter in the ring, I have been a mentor and friend to many of my fighters.
      Can you stand the pressure of the muay thai test with humility and confidence and respect? Respect being the key?
      For all who will judge something that they do not understand, try to prove to yourself that you are even worthy enough to be there and then show us that you can overcome it. For all who care, sorry I have lost my temper just a little. I cant help but feel affronted by people who talk junk about a test that they know nothing about. I hope that they can succeed in overcoming something like the test just once in their life.
      Kru d out

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      • #33
        Tim,
        Any clips of technique yet?

        Gruhn

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        • #34
          Originally posted by GorillaPalmz
          well, seeing as i was the one being critical, i guess your post refers to me.

          first of all, no fighter would say the tba test is harder than training and actually fighting. maybe those who think the tba test is hard should go fight-train with a true thai boxing trainer for a month, then get in the ring for 3x2 class c fight. try that a couple times. the tba test is hard in its own way, granted - it's obviously set up to deal out punishment, not test for technique. what does the test actually show, as far as thai boxing skill goes? who can't hit someone that can't hit back (at least the seniors should have to spar a round with the guy they just held pads for, to show actual thai boxing skill)? and what "instructor" qualifications does it show? it's the equivalent of board-breaking - difficult but pointless, in terms of showing skill. it's classic hazing, it allows senior members to haze prospects and reaffirm the hierarchy. it's the equivalent of a martial arts fraternity.

          i give much more props to those who train their ass off and actually get in the ring and fight, at whatever level. some of those people are tba certified, but they get props for the fighting, not for "testing." there's nothing like passing the tba test? try winning your first fight, man. like a lot of people, i hit pads to train, i don't train to hit pads, and certainly not for the promise of some certificate that has nothing to do with the sport. "the belt is in the ring" is a popular thai boxing saying, i don't know why that should change.

          as far as respect and humility go, some of us are adults, we don't want to be treated like children with some transparent carrot-and-stick ploy. i don't need anybody threatening me with 3-mile runs or a million push-ups or promise of some certification to get something done.

          that being said, i think master chai is a good guy and, you know, maybe he's just giving the western audience what they expect from martial arts - karate, but thai boxing style. the instructorship certificate is like having a black belt, i guess. i mean, who wants to go out and train and fight (or even just train active fighters properly) to earn respect when you can just hit pads all day and get an instructor's certificate? i mean, to each their own, but whatever.
          Well I dont get into internet sparring Hairy Palms or Hairy Gorilla or whatever you are.
          I have already won fights and had my hand raised. All amateur and all muay thai rules. Have you? A lot of people like to talk and have never walked
          Yes, the TBA test is one sided. Its hard b/c you cannot punch back. You have to show what you have to keep from getting knocked out minus a few tools. Anybody can go in and spar once you have enough experience. I dont think that anyone said that it was harder than a fight although I have heard some compare it. Pretty damn hard though. Especially for those who dont, wont or cant take it.
          For all the others who just want to judge something they wont ever understand or have the courage to do
          But its all good, so enjoy your training and I hope there is something for you at the end of the tunnel to strive for. See you at the next test or camp Me and the others will be looking for you to congratulate you on your internet prowess.

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          • #35
            This discussion of the test is moot for several reasons. For one, no one is forced to take the test, it is purely voluntary. There are other associations to join if it is that important. Besides, as Delbert has intimated, allowances can/will/have been made for all of us one way or another, and it really is not as vicious as people tend to think. If the testee does his part, beforehand and during the test, he will have no problems whatsoever. It is in the preparations that most people let themselves down. Another very key point is this: there will ALWAYS be this test for instructor certification in the TBA. It was designed almost 40 years ago by Master Chai, his father (at that time a lawyer/judge to the Supreme Court of Thailand) and his uncle (then the head of muay Thai/Krabi-Krabong training for the Thai army), taking into account legal, moral and physical obligations. It is now OUR tradition. No matter one's opinion, and they are all valid and justifiable, any TBA instructor would be welcomed into any muay Thai association in the world. Master Chai resisted for decades the application of a testing fee, contrary to every other martial arts organization I have heard of. Even now it is just $50. Yet people who do not wish to show themselves for 6 minutes have offered thousands for a certificate, even people with many fights in Thailand. The answer has always been and forever will be the same: No Way! Study the curriculum, learn the wai kru, get in the ring and show us your heart. And we will welcome you as one of us. It is your choice.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by GorillaPalmz
              well, seeing as i was the one being critical, i guess your post refers to me.

              first of all, no fighter would say the tba test is harder than training and actually fighting. maybe those who think the tba test is hard should go fight-train with a true thai boxing trainer for a month, then get in the ring for 3x2 class c fight. try that a couple times. the tba test is hard in its own way, granted - it's obviously set up to deal out punishment, not test for technique. what does the test actually show, as far as thai boxing skill goes? who can't hit someone that can't hit back (at least the seniors should have to spar a round with the guy they just held pads for, to show actual thai boxing skill)? and what "instructor" qualifications does it show? it's the equivalent of board-breaking - difficult but pointless, in terms of showing skill. it's classic hazing, it allows senior members to haze prospects and reaffirm the hierarchy. it's the equivalent of a martial arts fraternity.

              i give much more props to those who train their ass off and actually get in the ring and fight, at whatever level. some of those people are tba certified, but they get props for the fighting, not for "testing." there's nothing like passing the tba test? try winning your first fight, man. like a lot of people, i hit pads to train, i don't train to hit pads, and certainly not for the promise of some certificate that has nothing to do with the sport. "the belt is in the ring" is a popular thai boxing saying, i don't know why that should change.

              as far as respect and humility go, some of us are adults, we don't want to be treated like children with some transparent carrot-and-stick ploy. i don't need anybody threatening me with 3-mile runs or a million push-ups or promise of some certification to get something done.

              that being said, i think master chai is a good guy and, you know, maybe he's just giving the western audience what they expect from martial arts - karate, but thai boxing style. the instructorship certificate is like having a black belt, i guess. i mean, who wants to go out and train and fight (or even just train active fighters properly) to earn respect when you can just hit pads all day and get an instructor's certificate? i mean, to each their own, but whatever.
              Obviously, you're just a flamer just trying to get in here and rile up everybody's tail feathers. And I admit, you got mine tussled up pretty good.

              You're arguments are so weak it's almost sad to give them a response. Anybody can step between the ropes and get beat on. And anyone who's really been around the so called "fight scene" knows that it's easy enough to set up an easy opponent for a fighter. That's where we get the term "Tomato Can". At the professional level this called getting a tune up fight and it's a relatively, widely accepted practice. So, so much for getting a win being such a tough challenge.

              Of course fighting can be challenging and under the right circumstances, down right brutally revealing. But no more so than the TBA Thai Test. I have not yet tested in the TBA, but I have fought (amature Muay Thai and No Holds Barred) and I have trained and cornered fighters in over 30 NHB and Muay Thai Bouts. Based on the Logic of it alone, the TBA test is more challenging.

              First it takes years to get there, and second, and perhaps more importantly, you've got to have the nuts to walk into a situation where the odds are stacked against you. In a fight, your opponent can be made to respect your tools. He can't come at you with reckless abandon for fear of getting caught with a counter. He can tire, feel pain and be dazed just as easily as you.

              But in the TBA Test, the pad holder cannot be hit (only his pads can), he stays relatively fresh (as he does not have to evade and is replaced by a new holder each round), and can deal out punishment without fear of reprisal. What this means is that you've got to summon up the guts to throw kicks and knees, knowing full well that sooner or later you're going to get dropped. Then you've got to get up and do it again, knowing that as soon as you toss that kick, you're going to eat some more leather. That my friend takes real courage (and Khuen Khru Tim, to get up again after realizing that there is no possible way to successfully finish the test, well, I don't know if there is a word to describe what that is, but whatever it is it lies somewhere well beyond the realms of courage and honor).

              It's kind of like the story in old Norse Mythology about the test of a man's soul. You see in old Norse Mythology, they believed that there were two Gods (one Good one Evil) who battled for the fate of all mankind. The Evil God was destined to win no matter what. Thus the question arose, what is the point in doing any good in this world as we are all damned to burn in Hell anyway. To which the true warriors would answer (and I am paraphrasing here) "Because F**K the Evil God, that's why". So unlike popular western thought were most do good to recieve their reward in paradise and avoid being punished in purgatory, the Norse were given a lose, lose situation which gave them an opportunity to display true goodness, strenght and nobility.

              But back to the TBA Thai test. One of the most daunting things about the TBA Test is that chances are, your pad holders will be those mentors and role models that you have striven to be like. People that you've looked up to and tried to emulate for years as you've risen through the ranks. These are the folks that have taught you everything you know (but not everything they know). The are the ones who have prepared you for your fights and becasue of that, you fear no opponent. Oh and one more thing, there are no weight classes.

              As far as the question concerning the level of skill that the test demonstrates. I think that Chalambok has raised some valid points. And to them I would like to add the following. The test itself (the kick/knee round portion of it) may not demonstrate the widest assortment of skills but the fact that someone is testing does. Put another way, you simply wouldn't be testing if you hadn't demonstraited a solid skill set consistently throughout the years prior to being asked to test.

              I don't consider myself a fighter but I have spilt and had my blood spilt on the canvas and inside the cage AND I would say that training for and taking the TBA Thaiboxing Test is much more difficult than actually fighting.

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              • #37
                As I sit here with my feet in agony from running trying to make sure i'm in shape for thai camp(where I will test once again for associate under one of the best muay thai teachers in the world), all I can think of is when my Dad from the corner of my test back in 96' yelled"Get up Delbert" and the look on his face at the end of the test when his son had passed.
                The only thing better or in comparison is when the fighters that have trained under me(to have their hand held high in victory or to be counciled on what to do the next time) come back to thank me for the help and training they received even though I may have been merciless on them and sometimes they hated me. The training which would not be possible without the outcome of that test and the family that got me there and most importantly my teacher Ajarn Surachai Sirisute.
                Whats really funny is seeing posts from people 3-4 years ago who were begging for TBA sets now being critical of the messenger. Life is short especially for those with no memory of who brought them here.

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                • #38
                  Very well done! It is difficult to go those rounds, constantly executing strikes and combinations. It is tiring, especially when you are getting kicked in the head by someone who is not exhausting all of their energy moving around and trying to execute techniques. Those chops are especially brutal, man. Good form, though and for the most part adept execution. You are skilled and in great shape. Keep going the rounds. Respect.

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                  • #39
                    TBA test

                    I've both fought in the ring (amateur in Milwaukee & Osaka), taken the test (James Cook & Greg Nelson holding) and held for the test, and regarding the hazing comments above:

                    To even get to the portion of the test you see on that video, you have to demonstrate to Ajarn Chai's satisfaction all the techniques he asks you to perform, as well as perform the Wai Kru. If he finds either unsatisfactory, you're done. Try again next time. He also makes it a point to hold focus mitts for everyone testing that year. So there's plenty of judging of technique.

                    Others have already made valid points regarding the difficulty of defending yourself and maintaining offensive output without the crutch of hitting the other guy back. I know for a fact that had Greg wanted to knock me out he could have. The same goes for James (who as I recall muttered "you're doing great homie" to me in the clinch, right before we broke and he popped me one again). As it was, they both made sure I was tested to my limit (I think the bell rang as my 40th knee landed at the end of the 2nd).

                    Had the character of the people involved been any different, had there ever been anything but respect and generosity of spirit in the whole process, yeah I'm sure the event could have been made into a hazing. You're holding the pads, after all: you can cut kick the guy any time you like. The kid I held for broke the rules and punched me in the face as I recall, and I made sure he spent a lot of time getting up off the floor so that he got the message, but I didn't decide to sabotage his entire test. I just pushed him harder, and made sure he'd have a harder time getting out of bed the next day. But he trained hard and aside from that one lapse, deserved to pass.

                    Sometimes it does get rough: it IS a test of heart - as well as conditioning, and yes, technique (technique goes to hell quickly under stress after all). Some of the people involved will go on to fight, some won't. I hardly think it matters - that's up to the individual.

                    I think perhaps Gorilla is coming from a good place, and saw something out of context that looked ugly to him in that video. Noone likes to see people bullied or manipulated. Trust me when I say nothing could be farther from the truth. You saw one of the rougher "old school" tests, but as has been mentioned already, allowances are made and it's not simply a matter of dishing out pain. It's a matter of taking each student to their own particular limits.

                    Best regards,

                    ~ Ciaran Daly

                    P.S. Btw yeah it was harder than fighting.
                    Last edited by Ciaran Daly; 08-20-2006, 11:57 PM. Reason: P.S.

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                    • #40
                      You've just said some demonstrably untrue things. Many of the instructors that I've seen holding this test were champions. I'm not sure how one goes about winning a belt without "participating" in the sport. By your tone I deduce you must have several.

                      My teachers in this sport have always stressed respect first and foremost. It seems this value is falling by the wayside in martial arts once again. Perhaps you will learn it in the ring.

                      ~ Ciaran Daly

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                      • #41
                        I've trained with NON TBA and TBA instrucotrs/association members and I've trained fighters including a former Iron Heart Crown Super-Heavy Weight Kickboxing Champion and a fighter who has competed at the intermediate level in Shooto. And while I am not associated with the TBA in anyway I will can honestly say that everyone that I have ever met who happened to be associated with the TBA were very good people with very good skills.

                        GorillaP, your trolling skills are slowly disintegrating. The more you talk the more it becomes obvious that you just donít know what the hell you are talking about.

                        TTT for the TBA guys, keep doing your thing and don't worry about the haters.

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                        • #42
                          Fair Warning

                          I am tired of GorillaPalmz. Personally, I know many people from various muay Thai schools, camps and associations, and state categorically that Master Chai and his entire association are well-respected. Defend.net, and more specifically this Forum, is the official discussion forum for the Thai Boxing Association of the United States. I am stating right now this malicious and unwarranted attack by GorillaPalmz will stop today.

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                          • #43
                            tba test

                            hey Tim amazing heart and determination on the effort you made,posting the test shows even more balls,hats off!!!! any chance of you posting the tech part of the test?

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                            • #44
                              Tim,
                              Any clips of technique yet?

                              Gruhn

                              any chance of you posting the tech part of the test?

                              TTT!!!

                              Gruhn

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                              • #45
                                hi guys,im puzzled by this type of test for muay thai,ive never seen it done in thailand,has anybody else?

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