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  • #46
    I don't believe that test took place in Thailand...

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    • #47
      octaviousbp,yes i realised that,on many trips to thailand i have never seen any boxing camp do this type of test and wondered what relevance to muay thai it has,if its not done in the home of the sport,by the practicioners of the sport themselves?. im not knocking any of the people who have done this type of test and do see the relevance for general toughness type training etc,butnot for muay thai sorry!

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      • #48
        fire cobra:

        I'd say that is a pretty static view of Muay Thai. I take the viewpoint that Muay Thai is a dynamic sport that is gaining popularity world wide. This year's world amateurs saw competitors in the hundreds from over 80 countries.

        The sport grows different ways in different countries. This test seems to be a standard that was adopted by one organization in North America (and now world wide).

        If Muay Thai remained in a stasis of "traditional martial art" then maybe we'd have never seen the likes of great punchers such as Samart, Dekkers, Anuwat, etc.

        I see where you are coming from, but I just prefer a more active and alive viewpoint on MT. Just my two cents.

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        • #49
          octaviousbp I guess im an old traditionalist!, i understand and respect both your point of view and the people who have done and will do this test in the future,its just that i dont feel it plays much part in the development of a boxer,many years ago i would take full power low and mid round kicks every night with my friends,as well as other crazy training routines,such as tree kicking! now some years on and having coached many boxers to a decent standard,i realise training like this is not conductive(imho). but each to their own,if it works for you guys and you enjoy it then thats what matters,chok dee khrap

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          • #50
            fire cobra:

            You may find one aspect of the test that appeals to your traditionalist sense, in that the preparation for the test is quite similar to the preparation a boxer undergoes for a fight.

            That being said, in terms of a test, I by no means believe that being able to land a certain amount of kicks in a round makes you a good coach. Being a good coach makes you a good coach. While I don't want to put words in Ajarn Chai's mouth, I believe one of the goals of the test was to ensure that his instructors had a minimum level of fitness. If I recall, Guro Dan made all of his instructors test under Ajarn Chai for this reason (if this has all been hashed over previously in this thread I apologize, I haven't read every single post). I would imagine that this was a result of many other martial arts having instructors at the time that could barely jog up a set of stairs, let alone last a few rounds in the ring.

            As a coach myself, I try and implement all that I've learned throughout the years, and pass it on to my students. Sometimes that involves things that the TBA has taught me, and sometimes in involves passing on my experiences in Thailand. That, for me, is one of the beautiful things about MT... that it is a global sport (or quickly becoming one) with much to learn from many people. There doesn't tend to be many squabbles about "authentic" MT, but rather an environment of sharing done by critical martial artists and indeed athletes. MT uses what works. For some, maybe this test is of paramount importance, for others... maybe not. Either way, MT will continue to grow!

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            • #51
              Like others i don't get the vids either?

              If these were for coach/instructor grades the 1st seems to be lacking in a lot of skill & the 2nd seems to bring 3 words to mind "glutton for punishment".

              Sorry if i upset anyone but i cannot see what's to gain?

              I have had harder training sessions than the pad vids just as a trainer & having a one sided sparring match with someone of such a higher level of fighter wouldn't teach you much & you admit you took some bad injuries?

              Only time i ever had a bad injury was in the ring because even though we trained very hard we still had precautions, don't get me wrong, accidents do happen but this just seems to be asking for trouble with such a miss match of skills & no pads.

              Mike

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              • #52
                Mike and others who question the purpose of this test,
                Allow me to echo and add upon what others have already said. May I first point out that this test is for apprentice instructorship under Ajarn Chai. He considers this the “beginner level.” In fact, when you receive your certificate it says “completed a beginning course in Thai Boxing Muay Thai”, here is an example:



                With that said, this test is not meant to test people at a “master” level. Most if not all of the systems I am an instructor in have always viewed “black belt / instructor level” as the beginning. After my first instructor test my Sifu said “you may now start learning.”

                I believe that this test is a perfect prelude into fighting. While I already had a number of Real Contact Stickfighting events (Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack & closed door Real Contact Fights along with several tournaments) under my belt before I tested it was still a great experience.

                In regards to having harder training sessions you must understand that the purpose of the rounds is to show heart and dedication. The test is meant so the pad holder can stay fresh and unleash a beating without being hurt or worried about competition. I have seen many people fail the test because they simply cannot throw 60 kicks and 35 knees in three minutes while the pad holder is kicking and punching back. Trust me this is not an easy thing to do, please try it some time. In my eyes this teaches the kicker that it is okay and acceptable to take a beating; teaching humility if you will.

                I would be willing to bet that many of the mediocre fighters from UFC past and present would have trouble passing the test with good kicks and knees (not just throwing the kick up to lightly tap the pads). I personally see a lot of the “Thai Boxing” in the UFC at a beginner level at best.

                You must also remember that you are watching a video from several decades ago. While I mean no disrespect to anyone from the era that tested, Thai Boxing has evolved into something that you may see as “harder” by today’s standards. When I get a chance I would like to post the rounds from my last test which a pro MMA fighter (current 0 loss record) held for. Needless to say I think you may respect the test after seeing the footage. Please allow me some time to find the tapes, convert, post, get permission, etc.

                Lastly in regards to getting injured, yes this is the idea. Not TO get hurt but going into it knowing there is a good chance of being injured. It makes you respect the fact that you must protect yourself at all times. Because of this I have seen many tests which are far worse than an actual fight because of the one sidedness. With that said I wholeheartedly see this test as a respectable test that should only be judged by those who have actually taken it. Please do not misunderstand this as I think it is fine to “question” it and welcome everyone to ask questions. With that said I hope my post helps answers many of your questions.

                Respectfully,

                Ryan Gruhn

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                • #53
                  I totally disagree mate, why not incorporate fights into the gradings instead, at least this way you can make a real judgement on someone & have an even skill matchup when they begin fighting (how many fights fought/skill level etc) & the 1st few fights could be in-club or local ones maybe even with full pads on.

                  Your body WONT learn much from just being beaten the crap out of.

                  You say "trust me try this some time"??? what's that supposed to mean?
                  The way the pad man is in the video is how we trained all the time anyway? always hitting back after every combo the fighter would throw thus getting him used to being hit back straight after a combo or at random moments & belting him with the pads when you could still see an opening or teeping him in the guts when he goes to throw a kick.

                  Any more gaps would then be shown up in sparring using body pads until they could defend themselves, only then would they have the pads removed & start defending without them on.

                  "The test is a perfect prelude into fighting" - is this how they do things in thailand & is it a proven test?

                  "I would be willing to bet that many of the mediocre fighters from UFC past and present would have trouble passing the test with good kicks and knees (not just throwing the kick up to lightly tap the pads)"........and the ones thrown in the video's are of a higher standard then?

                  Sorry for all this but i think time would be better spent on at least having a closer matched padman/fighter because this is how the usualy try to match you when fighting.
                  I got stitched up in my 1st fight when i later found out that the guy was using me more as a warmup before fighting in Thailand (i took a big left hook in the last 20 secs of the fight after being exhausted from defending myself against a much higher skilled /experienced person) and looking back i think i would have learned a lot more from a more evenly matched person when 1st going into fighting.

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                  • #54
                    I totally disagree mate, why not incorporate fights into the gradings instead, at least this way you can make a real judgement on someone & have an even skill matchup when they begin fighting (how many fights fought/skill level etc) & the 1st few fights could be in-club or local ones maybe even with full pads on.

                    Your body WONT learn much from just being beaten the crap out of.

                    You say "trust me try this some time"??? what's that supposed to mean?
                    I have seen many people fail the test because they simply cannot throw 60 kicks and 35 knees in three minutes while the pad holder is kicking and punching back. Trust me this is not an easy thing to do, please try it some time.
                    60 kicks and 35 knees is what I meant, try hitting those numbers two rounds in a row while the pad holder is trying to avoid you and punching and kicking back.


                    "The test is a perfect prelude into fighting" -
                    is this how they do things in thailand & is it a proven test?
                    I believe that this test is a perfect prelude into fighting.

                    You missed the part in the beginning ( I believe ), you can have your own opinion.

                    "I would be willing to bet that many of the mediocre fighters from UFC past and present would have trouble passing the test with good kicks and knees (not just throwing the kick up to lightly tap the pads)"........
                    and the ones thrown in the video's are of a higher standard then?
                    You did not understand what I said. I meant the tests of today (as apposed to yesterday as seen in the video) because of the evolution of technique, etc. are "harder." By harder I meant skill level is more advanced. This does not mean that tests in the past were not "hard", many of them were, but I have personally been witnessing better and better Thai Boxers holding the pads for this test as well as taking the test.


                    I hope this helps.

                    Gruhn

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                    • #55
                      I will comment again when you put up some of today's test vids then.

                      But i still think it's something that westerners have just tagged on.

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                      • #56
                        As far as I know Ajarn Surachai "Chai" Sirisute is Thai.

                        http://thaiboxing.com/ajarnchai.php

                        Gruhn

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                        • #57
                          my mistake on the western bit then as i saw westerners in the vid.

                          "60 kicks and 35 knees is what I meant, try hitting those numbers two rounds in a row while the pad holder is trying to avoid you and punching and kicking back".

                          You should try to build up to this standard when training & if your of an instructor standard you should be able to do this easily.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by retired View Post
                            my mistake on the western bit then as i saw westerners in the vid.

                            "60 kicks and 35 knees is what I meant, try hitting those numbers two rounds in a row while the pad holder is trying to avoid you and punching and kicking back".

                            You should try to build up to this standard when training & if your of an instructor standard you should be able to do this easily.
                            retired,
                            I am glad to see you are starting to understand the concept. This is exactly what we shoot for and how we train every day. Doing it easily is exactly the goal we want to achieve. This type of "test" helps us better prepare mentally and physically for our fights.

                            Gruhn

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                            • #59
                              I hope things have changed a lot since those vids where taken.

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                              • #60
                                Hi Guys, I am still a little unsure of the purpose of this test. To be an instructor of Muay Thai i would think it unusal not to have fight experience. Perhaps at this time in America that was not an option.
                                To kick the pads 60 times and knee 40 would demonstrate a good level of fitness. My biggest concern with the test is that at not time was the kicker getting a chance to demonstrate his defence. For me to kick and then check, sway away or block a kick/punch might be a more logical idea. The student could then show that he had a defence and in this case a more variety of attack by the pad holder would be needed. if he blocked the licks the pad holder would noy kick so hard once he banged hid shins a few times, so perhaps shin pads might have been a good idea?
                                I understand that this was a tough test and a lot of heart had to be shown to get through. To me the test show that the kicker had heart and was fit but technique and defense seemed to be forgotten. Im not sure how long the kicker had been training and perhaps this test proved that he was strong and really wanted to learn Muay Thai i am sure he felt a good sense of achievement when he passed. The people who didnt pass? Not tough enough to learn?
                                Personally i believve if the trained the student properly and let him fight in the ring club or what ever he would have a better chance to illistrate his interpretion of Muay Thai or if the trainer used shin and belly pads as in Thailand for five hard rounds kicking him back it would be perhaps a better test?

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