Using JKD in a fight

[Studiobuddy]

qny recc. books or videos to train with?

[Tant01]

... I would have to say that in the last 15 years I've been in 20- 30 confrontations, 6 of which my opponant had a weapon . Mostly knives, beer bottles , pool sticks, ect.


Hope this answers you questions.

Yup, thanks...

[Nutz]

JKD is about "intercepting" the attack.

That's open to interpretation. Bruce's "way" will be different from my "way" for all sorts of reasons, from body type to training levels to natural talent. This is why he always regretted giving JKD a name. To me, the core of JKD is in the training method, not its results--use science, economy of motion, training against "real" opponents, etc. After applying all of those variables to yourself, your way will begin to form. And that is the ultimate goal of JKD IMHO (to lead one to true self-expression).

This aspect of JKD is why people like mfern31 have left JKD for other arts. Their instructors haven't gotten out of the mindset that what worked for Bruce won't neccessarily work for others, and their instruction needs to be shaped around their own individual abilities.

Listen. If you are looking to be able to defend yourself realistically in an assault situation, then stop looking for "martial arts."

Learn how to recognize violence, understand what brings it on, and get good at deploying and using OC spray. Get in good shape so you can run quickly, learn how to grapple from a good instructor, and develop a strong sucker punch.

I couldn't agree more. MA should be your last resort for fending off an attack. In a perfect world you shouldn't be in the situation to begin with, and avoiding conflict should be the start of any MA/counter-assault training. Look at what Demi Barbito is doing. In my opinion he's got the right idea.

[mfern31]

Well put!

Nutz,
I know we did'nt agree on the SB topic, but I agree completely with what you said about JKD instructors.

[Nutz]

Nutz,
I know we did'nt agree on the SB topic, but I agree completely with what you said about JKD instructors.

Now I'm seeing why you feel the way you do about the SB. FWIW, Mike Brewer posted on it and his version is exactly what I've been emplying for nearly 10 years now without the issues you mentioned. In my opinion it is worth reinvestigating.

But as for how instruction has been going, yeah, there has been some solidification and stagnation in JKD over the last 10 years or so. I'm glad that the UFC kick-started the groundwork exploration that Hartsel and co have bad ramping up on is now making its way into more mainstream instruction. From what I've seen and been told there is way too much emphasis on things that worked great for Bruce, but for the average Joe is not practical. Trapping is one of those things that I don't consider being much value in real fights except in extremely isolated instances. In my case, I find myself crashing right through the block and ending up in the clinch situation before ever having a chance to trap. Can trapping happen? Yes. But is it worthwhile for one to spend more than 5% of their training focusing on trapping? I don't see how that's wise at all. Even Vu and his students recognized that in the fight you should expect 95% punching and 5% trapping. Well, in my mind why would you spend more than 5% training for such a small portion of what you might find in a fight. I can appreciate the sensitivity training and situational awareness that trapping develops, but beyond that I don't see the reason for what I believe is overemphasis. Anywho, this is only one such facet of where I see training not being realistic. I like what the SF guys I trained with do. Cover what you'll see 99% of the time and then work out from there. And always try and push the encounter towards a positioning where you're in your most comfortable zone. For me its HKE. For others it might be on the ground. And for the SF guys I had the luck to train with, they each had their own positioning to finish the guy off in. I could better explain it, but this isnt the thread for it.

[mfern31]

Now you understand me! Am I to assume that your feelings on trapping are the same for the kali and silat intergrated into JKD today?

[Nutz]

Now you understand me! Am I to assume that your feelings on trapping are the same for the kali and silat intergrated into JKD today?

To a degree, yes. I'm of the mindset that I don't need to train the artsy-fartsy stuff if for the most part I'm just going to absorb a few shots (however I manage) and get into range to get my shots in. From there, whether it be a SB, shooting for a takedown, or whatever, I prefer to try to clinch and work *my* zone the best way I know how (HKE). It might be a limited way of viewing the fight-game, but its what best works for me.

In my not so humble opinion, I've come to believe that most have missed the point of what Bruce was tying to convey--which wasn't an art or style of fighting, but an ideology for training. When you applied his training principles to your own methodology and training, and subsequently developed your fighting attributes, your own personal way of fighting will be unveiled (aka self expression). For Bruce, he termed his way as Jeet Kune Do. His skills in trapping were so highly developed, which combined with his lightning speed is what allowed his trapping and interceptions to work. For most "normal" human beings, the stuff he did in a fight won't apply (i.e. trapping, and except for specific instances, interceptions). I know this is a bold statement that will piss a lot of people off, but from my experience, most people cannot trap in a real life streetfight (or even NHB for that matter). When was the last time you saw a trap in UFC, Vale Tudo, whatever? Sadly its taken me nearly 10 years to come to realize this. For me, why waste all the time training something that doesn't work? If people truly looked at themselves and their natural limits , 99% of them would realize that trapping and intercepts aren't something that realistically works for the majority of people out there. When was the last time in a real sparring match or a fight that you pulled off a pak-sao or lop-sao on a punch that had everything behind it? Even my instructors can't, unless we're working that trap and we're only supposed to strike in a specific manner. To me that's unrealistic training. This is why I agree with what the SBG guys are doing. Many traditional JKD guys may hate and 100% disagree with me, but then think of the irony in that statement--"Traditional JKD guys". Is this really what we've come to? Think about it. As for the Kali stuff, there are true benefits to weapons training, if done appropriately. Like my old instructor used to say, "if you can deal with a stick traveling at 100MPH, once you drop back to empty hands travelling at half that speed, things suddenly become much easier to deal with". Yeah the speeds might not be realistic, but the point is still the same: Different weapons bring out different speed and reactions, which helps enhance certain elements of your training.

[Nutz]

Harley replied with: "Mike, I know what you're saying, but isn't it a disservice to your students if you don't teach them everything? They can throw it away if they want, but as an instructor, shouldn't you do your best to give them the whole picture?"

I asked Paul Vunak one night, sitting on the couch watching Pink Panther Returns for the eighty millionth time, what he felt the most important attribute for a fighter was. I expected him to say "killer instinct" or something along those lines. He didn't. He said "Rapport." The ability to figure out how your opponent is doing what he's doing, understand why, and fit into that scheme of things goes farther than any single attribute ever will. Like a mechanic who knows thoroughly how to fix a car, who better to take it apart?

Points taken. However, I tend to see these points lost on most people and often times presented (or misinterpreted by me) as learning more techniques or arts for the sheer pupose of adding more tools to the toolbox. Larry Hartsell once said something at a seminar I attended that I still hold true, "if you can do 6 moves 100% of the time, you're lightyears ahead of the guy who has 100 moves but can only do them 50% of the time". I don't know if it was originally his, but it really hits home for me. Additionally, I can understand the idea of training the "other stuff" so you have been exposed to it and can defend against it. For example, I try to stay fluent in some other styles, such as TKD--Its a popular art and there's always a chance I might have some TKD kicks thrown at me that I normally would never attempt myself. But I still need to be able to deal with them. For me, I now think of trapping in the same light. But for what I train, I try to follow the K.I.S.S philosophy, which is 'Keep It Simple, Stupid'. Maybe its my military experience that makes me think this way, but my head is in it for the self-preservation aspects. The art and human development side of MA are, for the most part, pleasant side-effects.

[mfern31]

My man!

Nutz,
Welcome to my mind! Dude! Could not put it better! This is exactly what Im talking about. I've never seen an interception or a pok sao or a lop sao. This is what Im geting at, Bruces concept is great . But I think it has become exactly what he didnt want it to be. If Im going to spend my hard earned dollars I want to learn something that works. Its just getting to traditional man, you know maybe south paw doesnt work for me but JKD is taught that way. Why should some one spend hundreds of dollars and years to learn bits an pieces of arts an get info of wich only 20% will work. Whats the use in growing in these arts if at the end of the daysyour going to get your butt kicked! The majority of people take MA's to learn how to defend them selves and what their getting is a false sence of security. At an outrages cost, JKD schools are not cheap. Ive trained at JKD schools for years, but I feel that JKD is in true spirit practised by going to differant schools to learn different things and weed out the things the dont work. It kills me when you go to a JKD academy and you hear from intructors "This is the best" "Traditional JKD" thats BS . You see I question that fact that Bruce Lee was a great fighter but even if he was full of it, his concept was great an that made him great! I think Bruce would agree that you wont find JKD in a school, its something thats inside you self you just got to bring it out.

[Tant01]

M Brewer>>>"But it does teach me something about the way people move, and the way people fixate on weapons when they have them. 9 times out of ten, the answer to a capture is just to let go of the weapons and go after the guy, but no one seems to realize that. That little tidbit helped me just yesterday with a sparring session...."


Someone told me once that the Dog Bro's have a term for that. They call it "monkey trapped" It's kinda fitting if ya think about it. I imagine the monkey in a hysterical panic with his poor hand bleeding and stuck fast in the hole because of his tight grip on a tasty treat. Stupid monkey...LOL

[HERQ454]

view point

I think an interesting and valid point exist in this and other threads on this site.Why train in techniques or methods if there not practical,not functional?why waste time and effort on stuff that might get you smacked in the face in a real fight?I think a way of looking at this may be the way we use language.The majority of people use only a certain amount of words for speaking or writing,and sometimes we deal with other people who use words we are not familiar with.We find out the meaning of the word but does not mean that we will start using the word as part of our vocabulary.The same principle could be applied to the arts.We use what we know works but maybe we should be at least familiar with what others use so that we are not surprised if any situation was to occur.Familiar with others 'words'.So trapping might not work for you,but at least your familiar with it and like some person who cant find the appropriate word for a sentence and uses one he normally wouldnt use,maybe use a technique you normally wouldnt use but works just for that moment."Using no way as way,using no limitation as limitation."

[Tom Yum]

Good One

Great post Mike.

I think its a good idea to be polite to others, let the small stuff go.

Strangely enough, I've seen people who are very well trained with firearms or martial arts are more disciplined, kind and respectfull than those that aren't. I think this is just a coincidence.

[HtTKar]

Strangely enough, I've seen people who are very well trained with firearms or martial arts are more disciplined, kind and respectfull than those that aren't. I think this is just a coincidence

I agree. Though I think its that the more disciplined people seek out these types of training than undisciplined people. Disciplined people really seem to like a challenge, the harder something is to do, it seems the better the people are that are there.

Also being a martail artist does not mean that you'll actually be able to fight at all. Sure your form may be impressive, and you may be able to hold your own while sparring, but all that changes in a real fight. Some of the best fighters I know, have no formal martial arts training. They learned how to fight while growing up.

[Tom Yum]

Also being a martail artist does not mean that you'll actually be able to fight at all. Sure your form may be impressive, and you may be able to hold your own while sparring, but all that changes in a real fight. Some of the best fighters I know, have no formal martial arts training. They learned how to fight while growing up.

That's true. Some people have natural talent and have been in enough scraps to be able to hang on their own.

In all honesty though, if your motivated to fight and you have training, you'll probably be ok, especially if you can hang against guys trying to throw bombs at your face and body.

[bodhisattva]

"Some people have natural talent and have been in enough scraps to be able to hang on their own"

This is only half true.

Some people DO have natural talent, and they ARE scary.

But your buddies learned to fight DURING their scraps.

And that is what you must have if you want your "martial art" to work : lots of fighting in the gym.

That's why a guy who has fought some can normally whip the snot out of a fellow with a "black belt".

To find truth, you must face truth. You can't hit some pads, do some point sparring, and hit the showers and call it "martial art". Where was the "martial" side of it? That's just movement. It's not even an art.

I can dig on your thoughts, Mike Brewer. Why flame on people for doing what they like?

Why indeed.

I can't think of any reason, at all, to bother anyone doing what they like, if it hurts no one.

BUT, if a guy thinks he is training something that will help him protect himself or his family, and he is calling it "martial art", I think its a service to let him know he is probably going to get himself killed with his "martial art" some day.

Much as I wouldn't let someone fire a gun if it had an obstruction in the barrel. No need for egos, and no need for anger.

That's all

As far as martial arts being attractive to people with more discipline, and that's why good fighters are often friendly people..

I'd say that's not it. I'd say fighting (really going at it in the gym) develops character. And a lack of character is what leads most idiots to "prove themselves" when challenged outside of a gym environment.

How many fights have you EVER seen where the people were fighting because someone TRULY wanted to kill his family?

None, is my guess. Because it just doesn't happen with a crowd around.

What happens when a crowd is around is an ego-based altercation. The crowd is present, and both people have something to prove.

Getting punched in the head daily, combined with doing lots of punching to the head in return.. well, it can sure take the useless need for fighting out of the dog. I think the dog brothers said it best..I can't quote, only paraphrase: Each man has a chemical drive within his body for aggression, it comes from evolution, when we had to defend ourselves often. Now that we don't need it anymore, we have to find a safe and friendly way to express that side of ourselves, or else it will eventually vent on our family, friends or strangers. Fighting with hard contact effectively does that for us, and we come out of it "enlightened"

That is no where close to a quote. However, I think I hit the idea pretty well.