jkd in mma

[Tim McFatridge]

I have trained in JKD since 1994 and I am an instructor under Larry Hartsell and Mike Keller (certified under Dan)...please do not take that as me trying to name drop. just trying to let everyone know where I am coming from. I have competed in NHB/MMA/Kickboxing and Grappling tournaments at the local level but never had any desire to pursue a carreer in it. My reason for stepping in the ring and out on the mat was to prove to myself that what I was doing worked. I used it as a testing ground to judge the direction I was going and so I used it as a learning experience for my training and my fighting. Now like many of you I have also had far to many street fights, bar fights etc (in my younger days-- 36 now) and now that i am older and more mellow I will always try and choose the peaceful way out. If I have to then I will fight. I think most JKD practioners prefer to train for reality and have little if any desire to step into the ring.

By the way Macko...Erik Paulson can't suck to bad if he is the former undefeated Light Heavyweight Champion of Shooto.

Also, one of you bagged on Stickboxer for being rude or posting a negative reply...did you not read what he was replying to? By saying that JKD is "fancy kicks and yells" tells the knowledge of the person posting that comment.

I would suggest going out and training with Erik Paulson personally for a few days before saying he sucks...and would also suggest stopping by a few JKD schools and checking them out and talking to them then make a comment based on your personal experience.

[tel]

well said tim. people who say things like paulson sucks. don't have any idea. they are blind to what he has to offer, also human nature is to be negative against things they don't understand

[Thai Bri]

The proble with so called JKD guys it thatm, firstly, there are many off shoots of it, and they don't agree with each other anyway and, secondly.... it means wehatever someone wants it to mean.

[Stringer]

The proble with so called JKD guys it thatm, firstly, there are many off shoots of it, and they don't agree with each other anyway and, secondly.... it means wehatever someone wants it to mean.

There aren't as many offshoots as you think. There is a pretty standard curriculum taught by most legit JKD instructors.
Who cares if some top instuctors disagree with some things internally? Many arts have internal debate on how the art should be taught. That's not a concern for you as a student in training. Don't talk...DO! Just train, man. The stuff works if you train consistently, and most importantly hone the necessary attributes to make it work.

[Uke]

There aren't as many offshoots as you think. There is a pretty standard curriculum taught by most legit JKD instructors.
Who cares if some top instuctors disagree with some things internally? Many arts have internal debate on how the art should be taught. That's not a concern for you as a student in training. Don't talk...DO! Just train, man. The stuff works if you train consistently, and most importantly hone the necessary attributes to make it work.

There are MANY different interpretations of JKD. And many of the real legit guys who trained with Lee don't even want to call what they teach JKD because of it. Just ask Jesse Glover.

Go to an Inosanto's school and see if their JKD looks like JKD from Jerry Poteet. Go to a Larry Hartsell and see if their JKD is anything like what Jesse Glover teaches, even though Glover doesn't call what he learned from Lee JKD. It won't be.

JKD is a philosophy, not an art. And that's why you can do anything and call it JKD. People have been doing this for years. In an earlier discussion about this, I pointed out that Bruce Lee told Inosanto that he didn't think his FMA was practical and told him to leave it behind and move on to his own expression. However, we see FMA in much of JKD thanks to Inosanto despite the founder stating he didn't want it. Inosanto did what he wanted and what got discarded was the founder's wishes. Guru Inosanto will tell you this himself.

The point is that people do what they want to do and call it JKD. I'm sure some schools or branches seek to be more uniform in what they teach, but they don't control or influence even close the whole that claims to be JKD.

[WuChi]

From what I understand of Bruce Lee and JKD, it seems to be something like the spark that started all the cross training and MMA competitions. However I never see any JKD fighters in MMA competition.

I have some ideas of my own as to why this is, but I feel it would be better answered by students of the art itself.

Try looking in Pancration wrestling and the Roman equivelant. This was called All-Powers fighting, and was unbelievably similar to mma.2000years ago. ASs for JKd, it is not a style, it has not fixed moves and really should have no name. It is a system and a set of concepts to aquire a high level of personal development. Are you guys realy that daft, to think that people still say im a, boxer, a hapkido etc, we are Fighters. And there are many people who used JKD concepts in mma, but I choose to train with peole from all walks of life as well. I have had my share of Jkd research and it has helped me to understand and develop. Lets not forget than when you get in the cage, ints the man thats fighting not his style.

[Uke]

Try looking in Pancration wrestling and the Roman equivelant. This was called All-Powers fighting, and was unbelievably similar to mma.2000years ago. ASs for JKd, it is not a style, it has not fixed moves and really should have no name. It is a system and a set of concepts to aquire a high level of personal development. Are you guys realy that daft, to think that people still say im a, boxer, a hapkido etc, we are Fighters. And there are many people who used JKD concepts in mma, but I choose to train with peole from all walks of life as well. I have had my share of Jkd research and it has helped me to understand and develop. Lets not forget than when you get in the cage, ints the man thats fighting not his style.

Very true. Good post.

[Uke]

This isn't the reason I found this debate interesting. This topic was created to discuss JKD in MMA. What I have found interesting is that there have been JKD practitioners in NHB since the early UFC’s, but they haven’t done that well. This brings up a very important point that no one is pointing out. I've seen several topics on this site geared toward making the statement that various arts, specifically wing chun and aikido aren't effective and wouldn't do well in NHB. But for some strange reason, no one here wants to apply the same logic to JKD.

Now this isn't my criticism of JKD. This is me pointing out that there have been men from many different arts in NHB that haven’t done well. But no one highlights that fact. If every MMA fan is going shit on arts that haven’t done well NHB events, then they might as well throw muay thai, JKD, wrestling and boxing on that list too, because practitioners of those styles have caught beatings in NHB too.

We have a bunch of self serving statements being made about what would and wouldn't work. Some are partial to muay thai. Some are partial wrestling. Others are die-hard when it comes to boxing. But if the same logic was applied to those arts as it has been to certain disciplines of kung fu and karate, then people would have to admit that more times than not a win in the ring has more to do with the fighter and less to do with the style.

There are excellent practitioners and fighters in most styles. But from what I've read here on this site, some people seem to think that a styles worth is in the limited times people have seen it win or lose in NHB, which is ridiculous.

Everyone has been led to think that MMA is the way, which is ridiculous because the most dominant champions are all traditional martial artists who simply made adjustments.

Crocop is a karate/kickboxing stylists who learned takedown and submission defenses out of necessity.

Fedor Emelianenko is a judo expert who took boxing in his youth. He’s not that good a boxer, but his extremely heavy hands makes up for what he lacks in technique.

Antonio Nogueira is a BJJ expert who took up boxing with the Cuban boxing team because he lacked any effective standup offense. There’s been a noticeable improvement in his hand skills.

When you watch any of these three men, they usually win using the skills that they began with. Of course they’ll mix it up sometimes, but when it comes down to the wire, they always fall back on what they know: The traditional art that they have their base in. If you look at any of their fight records, more than 85% of their wins came from them doing what they’ve always done. The adjustments just compliment that in case they need to compensate in any given situation.

If we were to take practitioners of karate, wing chun, aikijitsu and any other art that people have been using for centuries to survive and put them through the training regimen that NHB fighters go through, but instead tailor the drills to refine their base skills in the art that they’ve been practicing … you’d see a VERY different outcome fom TMA's in these tournaments. Don’t forget, Liddell was a TMA and was always a tough competitor from the beginning. But he wasn’t nearly as good until he took advantage of the training and sciences available from NHB associations. Liddell got better with time. That’s why a 40 year old Couture was able to outbox and embarrass Liddell, even though Couture is a wrestler and Liddell was the experienced striker! The training, and the intensity in which you train, IS EVERYTHING. You won’t see wing chun, aikido or karate men with the conditioning and in the shape of a professional NHB fighter. You’ll just never see it. Not even Olympic karate competitors are training in the manner that NHB fighters do. The sports medicine alone is light years ahead of anything they’re doing. NHB sport science, conditioning methods and intensity is second only to boxing.

In the beginning, NHB had a noble ambition to pit style against style to see what worked against what and what didn’t. It was about method, not about fighter. As it progressed, it became about the fighters. The events themselves began getting sponsors for gyms so that guys could be in better shape and learn new techniques in an effort to make more exciting matches. But in doing so, they made most of the guys fight alike, which makes the matches more competitive and takes away from ambition of seeing method vs method.

It’s like a pitbull vs pitbull match. It may be exciting to some, but anyone who’s seen it before knows what the fight will look like because the tools are all the same. Now you make it a pitbull vs wolverine match, and you’ve got a completely different match and two completely different fighting styles because the tools that will be used are different, so each combatant's approach to the fight will be as well.

So before people begin condemning certain arts, I just think that they should factor some of these things into their reasoning.

[Stringer]

There are MANY different interpretations of JKD. And many of the real legit guys who trained with Lee don't even want to call what they teach JKD because of it. Just ask Jesse Glover.

Go to an Inosanto's school and see if their JKD looks like JKD from Jerry Poteet. Go to a Larry Hartsell and see if their JKD is anything like what Jesse Glover teaches, even though Glover doesn't call what he learned from Lee JKD. It won't be.

JKD is a philosophy, not an art. And that's why you can do anything and call it JKD. People have been doing this for years. In an earlier discussion about this, I pointed out that Bruce Lee told Inosanto that he didn't think his FMA was practical and told him to leave it behind and move on to his own expression. However, we see FMA in much of JKD thanks to Inosanto despite the founder stating he didn't want it. Inosanto did what he wanted and what got discarded was the founder's wishes. Guru Inosanto will tell you this himself.

The point is that people do what they want to do and call it JKD. I'm sure some schools or branches seek to be more uniform in what they teach, but they don't control or influence even close the whole that claims to be JKD.

JKD is a philosophy AND an art. Again, there is an internal debate among JKD practioners on certain issues, but the foundation is the foundation. You do understand that JKD had a core curriculum, written down and taught as a SPECIFIC ART in the school in Los Angeles, right? How can you say it not an art when there are fundamentals that were authorized to be taught by the founder that are not up for debate? Jun Fan Gung Fu is what it is. An original Bruce Lee student may teach it in different ways based on what stage met Bruce and what Bruce was working on at that time. However, there is no point in discussing "Jeet Kune Do" on a martial arts board, in my estimation, unless you acknowledge that there is a foundation of techniques and principle from which you are to build your own WAY.

You can throw a bunch of arts together and say you are following the "philosophy" of JKD, but you are not working with what Bruce called Jeet Kune Do when he was living. Only those who haven't done their research and don't know better would call such a hodge-podge JKD. Actually, you may create a highly effective style that way...but you couldn't call it JKD.

[WuChi]

QUOTE
You can throw a bunch of arts together and say you are following the "philosophy" of JKD, but you are not working with what Bruce called Jeet Kune Do when he was living. Only those who haven't done their research and don't know better would call such a hodge-podge JKD. Actually, you may create a highly effective style that way...but you couldn't call it JKD.

This is true. It is never the system or style that matters it is the man, is bloody simple. The reason you dont here me say "I dont think JKD is effective on the street BLa Blah" is becasue I dont think that. I dont think that about any art, because it all comes down to you. You cant get fed from the tit all your life, you have to stand up and say "Im a fighter, a my own school of thought". It will and always has been the man , who matters(or woman) not the style. Its a shame some people cant get that, they think a style holds truth. As for Jeet Kune Do, obviously the translation of intercepting fst echoes some of the main princaples, but is really a minor part to his system. JKD is where you come from and where you are going, and it doesnt matter what you do its always going to be about you. Nothing should be called JKD, not even Jeet Kune Do, I know most of you will know that already, but some kling to a name as if its a physical entity. Bruce Lee`s most heart-felt philosphies where those that make you have confidence, faith and the feeling of personal worth. Its a way of saying, Im going to tackle the casue of my own ignorance rather than letting someone drip feed me all my life.

[WuChi]

And yYou will find people from arts like karate and the likes training hard, obviously, and at a high intensity. I think you give people less credit than their due. I compete in mma, which is not NHB, and neither is the UFC by the way, but find although we work hard, Iv seen it all before. In JUdo we worked hard, and in Thai boxing and karate. Its all about how hard YOU want to work, or are you going to let them make you train hard, get a grip. You take the initiative yourself. If youv been in a class, and not trained hard, and blamed the instructor then you should be ashamed.

[Uke]

Actually, you may create a highly effective style that way...but you couldn't call it JKD.

Yet, there are so many that do. Who told you that charlatans had to play by your rules?

[Stringer]

Yet, there are so many that do. Who told you that charlatans had to play by your rules?

No HAS to do anything in life.

Edit: No one has to do anything in life. I was really tired when I wrote that horrible excuse for a sentence.

[Uke]

No HAS to do anything in life.

Very true, Stringer.

[Stickbxr]

Hey Guys....finally got a chance to catch up on this and wanted to say 1) thanks to Tim for your supporting comment 2) I enjoyed reading alot of these posts in here including..but not limited to Tims, Ukes, WuChis and Stringers. All of them contained a lot of thought and varying levels of knowledge making for what I thought were educated yet civilized answers.