The Gracies UFC Events: Truth Behind Speculation?

[choylifutrocks]

I often hear about the screenings UFC does, and the rules imposed on contenders. I also hear about challengers who are not allowed in sometimes, i.e. Benny "The Jet" (however the hell you spell his last name). I just want to know, what people know about these speculations. Any evidence? This is not a challenge, I am just interested in the subject.

[IPON]

Choy I have understood the same thing as well. Just to clarify, the UFC is under different ownership. I can't tell you at what point it was sold, but I know this was an issue in the begining because the claim was "any style" but some styles or individuals were not allowed, the one that I remmeber the most was Paul deThorus the silat stylist. I remember reading about his complaints in insde kung fu or karate in the early 90's but I am sure there are others. Just as I an sure that if it happened in the begining it is definately happening now under the current management.

With the Gracies Love'em or hate'em but no one can argue the the UFC was much better when they had control of it.

[Maxetai]

And the UFC was/is supposed to be real fighting?
Hell, I can set up my own "UFC" and admit only the fighters I'm sure I can beat and then I'm "champion".
Right? Pretty pathetic if you think about it.

I'll say it again: When the people wake up and jump off the BJJ/Gracie bandwagon, they will realize that a complete fighter/Martial Artist has the ability to fight and prevail in any range and not just in one or two. Kicking, punching, intermediate/trapping/clutching/stand up grappling and grappling/wrestling/ground fighting ranges are equally important.
It's a puzzle and you need all the pieces and then find a way/ways to put the pieces together.

[IPON]

Originally posted by Maxetai
And the UFC was/is supposed to be real fighting?

I'll say it again: When the people wake up and jump off the BJJ/Gracie bandwagon

Hey no jock riding here. And noone said anything about real fighting, definately not.

The issue was that, as you know, the Gracies claimed an unbeatable style for 65yrs (eventhough thelio has been beaten) and challenged the entire world, specifically via the UFC in the early 90's. but there were artists that claimed to accept the challege but were not allowed to even tryout, thety were blocked by the Gracies. They claim it was becuase thier style was too brutal or when they tried to make it true NHB they would not accept it.

[Sean Dempsey]

but there were artists that claimed to accept the challege but were not allowed to even tryout, thety were blocked by the Gracies

when and who

[Mr. Miyagi]

Emin Boztepe was supposed to fight a couple times, definitely he was considered to do the superfight against Royce before Shamrock signed for UFC 5. I think Boztepe would have lost in under five minutes.
Martial arts is very broad and UFC is a sport. By the same argument some of you make, I suppose people who fight with sticks and swords should also be allowed to show up to fight the Gracies.
It seemed somewhat ironic to me that Marco Ruas did not appear in the UFC until Royce was done competing.

[NHBMARK1]

"With the Gracies Love'em or hate'em but no one can argue the the UFC was much better when they had control of it."


Have to disagree.
The current owners put together much better fights.

Don't hate the Gracie's although they'd get eaten alive in the current enviroment.

[IPON]

Originally posted by Sean Dempsey


when and who

This is definitely not Gracie bashing, at least not from me. I don't bash or ride the bandwagon I am just interested in learning.

The point of the thread was is there any truth to he speculations and I was responding to Maxetai clarifying the point of the thread.

Regarding the when and who, I gave that, what I remember the most was Paul deThorus (sp??) arguing the fact that they blocked him from even tryout early 90' (maybe 93-94). He stuck in my mind only because I was starting to learn about Silat at the time. Was it the Gracies specifically or part of management I don't know (but I believe he focused on the Gracies). But I have heard a few, not many, other MAs say the same thing. Outside of Paul deThorus I don't remember any specific names. What may give this thought more power was that people also questioned the caliber of the early contestants. Yes some world champs, but some, (I think I am correct) didn't have much advance time to train. Not judging, I just think it added to the rumors.

I am curious if it is true, if people have any legitimate knowledge if this, I certainly don't. But my point is, IF this is true to any extent, it makes a big statement considering at the time, early 90's, they made so much noise about the Gracie challenge and being willing to take on any challenger. From what I do know they have honored that, but I don’t know where they started the clock regarding 65yrs undefeated if Helio was beaten circa 1950.

I would be just as satisfied with someone telling me all the allegations are false and what the circumstance was.

NHBMARK1: any particular Gracie or all. I think they would be able to hold there own. but the problem with the current UFC is the it was originally the clash of styles, very pure. Yes, it was also big marketing for GJJ, but it took different martial art styles to war. Now you have all these people in the UFC that train just to win the UFC..the sprinkle a little BJJ on top of some boxing/MT and they are fighters. That's why it is boring to me

[choylifutrocks]

"I am curious if it is true, if people have any legitimate knowledge if this, I certainly don't. But my point is, IF this is true to any extent, it makes a big statement considering at the time, early 90's, they made so much noise about the Gracie challenge and being willing to take on any challenger."--IPON

I couldn't have said it better myself

I also agree that UFC was better under Gracie ownership, especially for their fighting record

[IPON]

Sean and Choy: here is a link from someone who was "inside" allegedly screening for the UFC. I honestly don't know how legitimate this is but it speaks to the point of the thread. I would have to say the way it is worded, if true, this was under the new management not the Gracies but read the post from Great Sage.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?s=&postid=84118#post84118

[NHBMARK1]

"NHBMARK1: any particular Gracie or all. I think they would be able to hold there own. but the problem with the current UFC is the it was originally the clash of styles, very pure. Yes, it was also big marketing for GJJ, but it took different martial art styles to war. Now you have all these people in the UFC that train just to win the UFC..the sprinkle a little BJJ on top of some boxing/MT and they are fighters. That's why it is boring to me "

Hello,

Maybe that was harsh, ok I'll rephrase.
I think if any Gracie (the best probably being) Royce, Rickson & Renzo, do you really think they could beat a Randy Couture, Chuck Lidell or Tito Ortiz? May (at best) give a good showing.
These days there's a different breed of UFC fighters now that's all.


Thoughts?

[IPON]

NHB - I would have to say that the competeion would be Randy.
After Tito's wuss performance against Randy, nuff said. Chuck Lidell I think is mainly PRIDE (I may be wrong I just started following MMA again) . Did he get tapped by Randy or some other subnmission guy before.

I agree it is a different breed, would you agree, genrally speaking, with this staement: "Jacks of all trades masters of none"

I know it is general but it seems that it fits a lot of the UFC athletes at least. So I think being on the ground with a Gracie and just having 6 month of generic BJJ is going to be tough.

I think both Randy and Chuck seem tought as nails. But of the 2, I think Randy would have the best shot at beating any of the 3 Gracies.

[NHBMARK1]

"After Tito's wuss performance against Randy, nuff said. Chuck Lidell I think is mainly PRIDE (I may be wrong I just started following MMA again) . Did he get tapped by Randy or some other subnmission guy before".

I'm pretty much a fan from the beginning.
My take is Tito & Chuck are leagues above most of the fighters of the "old days" & would still fair well against a Gracie.
For me, I'd love to see Chuck vs Renzo & Tito vs Royce..

Now about Superman....err Randy Couture, a different animal &
To answer your question, he beat Chuck & Tito.
He's just unbelievable.

Chuck is a UFC guy who just fought (won 1 & lost in the finals) at
the Pride Grand Prix finals in Japan last week.


Believe me, I'd love to see the Gracies fight in UFC again, although they seem to have ties in Pride.
There's a Pride ppv Dec. 21 (from earlier, I beileve in late Oct.)
that'll be shown, 4 Gracies fighting on the same show.

enjoy the weekend,

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by IPON
Sean and Choy: here is a link from someone who was "inside" allegedly screening for the UFC. I honestly don't know how legitimate this is but it speaks to the point of the thread. I would have to say the way it is worded, if true, this was under the new management not the Gracies but read the post from Great Sage.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/s...4118#post84118

Ha, ha...those are actually the posts that caused me to start this thread.

[kid_chocolate]

re: UFC

As someone said, its more boring now because its not about a clash of styles. It might have been fixed to some extent in the old days but it was great fun to watch. You know what the fights will look like now so its more of a sport like boxing. Everyone trains the same. The standards of the fighters are much higher now and they would kick everyone's ass, but its just not so much fun to watch.

Someone should get another tournament started for style vs style stuff coz thats where the pure comedy and entertainment is to be found. Real athletes should be banned from it to keep the entertainment value high.