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Am I being contraversial?
Man SLOW in here!
I guess everyone is busy living in the REAL world
Well guys can I petition you to come back to the "Cyber Kwoon"
and help a Brotha out?
Seriously, I have been thinking (yes it happens from time to time)
Thanks to HARD sparring and alive drilling, I have gained new insight into some things and would love to hear your opinions-findings etc... Especially you Burton.
I would like to discuss the dreaded topics of:
1. Sumbrada.
2. Inside Deflection.
3. "Trapping".
4. Lock flows.
5. Set patterens.
Sumbrada
I know we still do "sumbrada" in JKDU. Largo Mano range. I also know we don't do it middle range. Of course Sumbrada is basically "catch" and can be anything also we can "jazz" it up in various way it doesn't have to be set etc..
But the problem seems to be some of the "blocks" don't come out in actual fights with sticks and the alive hand as well is hard to get off. So why do the drill?
If I am off please correct me as to why middle range sumbrad has fallen out of favor in JKDU.
Inside Deflection
TODAY, just a few hours ago I was teaching a student in my basement. He has been doing JKDU Bjj etc... with me for about 9 months. In that whole time, when it came to sticks, we stayed to Burtons system and as a result are ability to fight with a stick has improved a great deal. But there always seemed to be some resistance when I said ok time for some sticks. Almost everyone
has admited that they belive our stick program worked very well, but their feeling was summed up by one of my students when he said, "well, if I ever want to beat someone up with a stick I'll be set!"
Now if you look at the cross over benifit of our stick training basically it develops lead hand tools a better sense of distance, head movement and footwork.
So over this time, I mentioned the "other way" I used to train in the stick (Inosanto/Lacosta blend mostly) I told him of "sumbrada" Hubud et al he was like wow sounds fun! ANd he and they wanted to learn it. I said nah... That stuff isn't very functional...
Well he kept bugging me, and to be honest it s loads of fun and also I am not TOTALLY convinced it is not functional. Long story short (too late for that!) Today we (him and I only) were into our 5th lesson doing the "old stuff" He lOVES it LOL! But that's not the big story here. So what is?
Well, we were doing basic three count sumbrada (Inside deflection-drop stick-roof) and when we got to the inside deflection I would mention how it is very hard to do that against a real angle #1 BUT then it just HIT me!
What is inside deflection? Motion wise? Inward with the right and backhand with the left! That motion is: (Right to right)
1 Parry jab return cross
2 parry jab return body cross
3 Parry jab back hand gunting
4 Parry jab eye jab
5-8 same as above but against cross
8-12 same but first motion against first punch second against second punch.
13 could be inward gunting then sliding finger jab deflection
14 the first motion could be a groin slap
15 Could be entry to Kengit etc... etc...
So it came to me, that while SOME of the motions in sumbrada might not show up in sparring with a stick the empty hand motions DO come up not just in empty hand sparring (kick boxing structure) But also "self defense" senerios i.e practice a guy is standing by you and punches etc.. You respond...
So if you llok at it in this light then the STICK can be a tool to CHARGE your empty hand reflexes for the empty hand techniques that DO work! So while JKDU Stick Fighting may be the fast road to "stick fighting" the actual physical motions are limited to crossover seeing as it is mostly lead hand "fencing" Thoughts?
Trapping
Really what is that? Bruce said HIA! FIA and HIA again attack by immobilizing the hand, the hair, the foot.. GRAPPLING Holding and hitting! Thats really what trapping is! But complex traps?
Please consider the knife, I stab at your belly you had BETTER either grab my weapon hand, or block it or pass it by and as soon as you do, we have a reference point! If my alive hand is trained well, I'll pak that obstruction and maybe slice the neck, since the first hand is hung up a little due to pak you have to use your other hand and there is the second hand energy! Both wing chun and kali addressed the blade! Greco and Bjj doesn't!
So as JKD people we should look at the TOTALITY of "trapping range" WHich I define as when I can grab the back of my opponants head and he mine while standing. In that "space" many things can happen, certain arts address certain "issues" better than others. There are times when Greco is THE thing to do in "trapping" range, but times like knife attack when it is not.
Also I know more people who take kenpo, Karate, Kung Fu Tae Kwon DO than I do Greco or Bjj people also there are a TON of schools that teach those arts and a FEW that teach Greco, NHB, Bjj. So the chances of a bad guy being trained in NHB, Greco, or BJJ is less than being trained in one of the others. And Jun Fan and Kali "trapping" handle the "clasical" systems well in my experience.
I feel that the issue with "complex" trapping was never if it "worked" anyone who rolled in Chi sao knows it "works" If you get the reference points, I think the issue is do people get the reference points? If you train with BJJ people or Greco People maybe not, if you train with others then yes!
Also the sensitivity and reflexes developed by doing hours of "trapping Drills" do come in is Greco as well. So just some thoughts here...
Lock Flows
At first I Jumped on the "bandwagon" and said these things are useless... What caused me to form that opinion was Matt's video where he showed side control and explained that your better off knowing Kimura, Americanan, and straight arm bar and training them against resistance, getting timing than knowing lock flows..
BUT, While I agree with the timing and resistance idea, I have many times in all out sparring come up with a lock because I knew so many variations, if you only know to look for three locks, then how many chances are you missing because you can't see them? I remember I posted a story here of one time when I was attacked at my house, I remember that the bad guy got to my back and I looked down and saw his foot between my legs and all of a sudden "rememberd" a technique where you grab and lift the heel and straighten the leg and sit on the knee. and I tried it and SLAM!! His head hit the ground HARD! There was not much fight after that. And that was a direct result of just being exposed to so many different techniques that I was able to recognize an opprotunity!
Many times watching my students grapple (sparring) I see so many things they "could" do and I yell out, take his hand there, now bend it... No no... LOL! They are like WHAT?!?!? They don't see it I feel if they KNEW what was "possible" they would be better equipped to take advantage of what is given them.
Also Look at Eric Paulson, he does lock flows and uses his art real time against skilled opponants...
Set Patterns
Burton, one thing I am teaching my student Ryan (the guy who I was training today in the basement) is a drill you put on your FIRST video for Unique, you called it a true arts alliance drill is was a combination of footwork and Siniwalli do you remember that?
Anyway, I learned it the first day I got the video, stayed there rewind, rewind LOL! I loved it! Then what I did on my own was make variations on it where I combined different footwork patterens with combinations of siniwalli drills...
Anyway we are working that, so far he has kab Kab into open four count, into open Six into closed four into Heaven six then standard six... (with the footwork) He LOVES it because he is SO messed up! LOL! His coordination is being tested big time and he feels it and see's it improving. He is learning to recognize some empty hand things by referencing back to the sticks.
Now why do I love this drill? Because it forces you to grow beyond what your comfortable doing! Putting certain footwork together with certain stick patterens JUST DON'T FEEL NATURAL! LOL! That's the idea, in sparring under pressure you are going to fall back into what you can do well, you will never grow beyond what you can already do. But Drills like those force you to expand what is possible or comfortable for you, so in the heat of the momment in sparring, it might come out. Maybe not the exact movement, but the "attribute"...
I am just sharing some path notes from where I am at in my process, everything is "fluid" (Stole that from the daily war briefings
) I think HARD sparring is essential, but I also think that allot of the "old Stuff" may be valuable too! Marc Denny said the Warriors of old used drills to train, but nowadays people are trying to use drills to "create" warriors! I Think Hard sparring is what we all need to provide the experience of being a warrior so maybe we can "see" the value of the drill...
Look at Guro Inosanto, he sparred HARD with Bruce and from what I hear (Burton should know) The Old Kali Academy rock and rolled as well. Maybe he teaches some of these drills now because he see's the value, and maybe he "see's" because of the hard sparring?
I would really appericiate your thoughts Burton and others pro or con for what I have written, we are all in this together united on the path of self discovery!
best,
-Rick
I guess everyone is busy living in the REAL world
Well guys can I petition you to come back to the "Cyber Kwoon"
and help a Brotha out?
Seriously, I have been thinking (yes it happens from time to time)
Thanks to HARD sparring and alive drilling, I have gained new insight into some things and would love to hear your opinions-findings etc... Especially you Burton.
I would like to discuss the dreaded topics of:
1. Sumbrada.
2. Inside Deflection.
3. "Trapping".
4. Lock flows.
5. Set patterens.
Sumbrada
I know we still do "sumbrada" in JKDU. Largo Mano range. I also know we don't do it middle range. Of course Sumbrada is basically "catch" and can be anything also we can "jazz" it up in various way it doesn't have to be set etc..
But the problem seems to be some of the "blocks" don't come out in actual fights with sticks and the alive hand as well is hard to get off. So why do the drill?
If I am off please correct me as to why middle range sumbrad has fallen out of favor in JKDU.
Inside Deflection
TODAY, just a few hours ago I was teaching a student in my basement. He has been doing JKDU Bjj etc... with me for about 9 months. In that whole time, when it came to sticks, we stayed to Burtons system and as a result are ability to fight with a stick has improved a great deal. But there always seemed to be some resistance when I said ok time for some sticks. Almost everyone
has admited that they belive our stick program worked very well, but their feeling was summed up by one of my students when he said, "well, if I ever want to beat someone up with a stick I'll be set!"
Now if you look at the cross over benifit of our stick training basically it develops lead hand tools a better sense of distance, head movement and footwork.
So over this time, I mentioned the "other way" I used to train in the stick (Inosanto/Lacosta blend mostly) I told him of "sumbrada" Hubud et al he was like wow sounds fun! ANd he and they wanted to learn it. I said nah... That stuff isn't very functional...
Well he kept bugging me, and to be honest it s loads of fun and also I am not TOTALLY convinced it is not functional. Long story short (too late for that!) Today we (him and I only) were into our 5th lesson doing the "old stuff" He lOVES it LOL! But that's not the big story here. So what is?
Well, we were doing basic three count sumbrada (Inside deflection-drop stick-roof) and when we got to the inside deflection I would mention how it is very hard to do that against a real angle #1 BUT then it just HIT me!
What is inside deflection? Motion wise? Inward with the right and backhand with the left! That motion is: (Right to right)
1 Parry jab return cross
2 parry jab return body cross
3 Parry jab back hand gunting
4 Parry jab eye jab
5-8 same as above but against cross
8-12 same but first motion against first punch second against second punch.
13 could be inward gunting then sliding finger jab deflection
14 the first motion could be a groin slap
15 Could be entry to Kengit etc... etc...
So it came to me, that while SOME of the motions in sumbrada might not show up in sparring with a stick the empty hand motions DO come up not just in empty hand sparring (kick boxing structure) But also "self defense" senerios i.e practice a guy is standing by you and punches etc.. You respond...
So if you llok at it in this light then the STICK can be a tool to CHARGE your empty hand reflexes for the empty hand techniques that DO work! So while JKDU Stick Fighting may be the fast road to "stick fighting" the actual physical motions are limited to crossover seeing as it is mostly lead hand "fencing" Thoughts?
Trapping
Really what is that? Bruce said HIA! FIA and HIA again attack by immobilizing the hand, the hair, the foot.. GRAPPLING Holding and hitting! Thats really what trapping is! But complex traps?
Please consider the knife, I stab at your belly you had BETTER either grab my weapon hand, or block it or pass it by and as soon as you do, we have a reference point! If my alive hand is trained well, I'll pak that obstruction and maybe slice the neck, since the first hand is hung up a little due to pak you have to use your other hand and there is the second hand energy! Both wing chun and kali addressed the blade! Greco and Bjj doesn't!
So as JKD people we should look at the TOTALITY of "trapping range" WHich I define as when I can grab the back of my opponants head and he mine while standing. In that "space" many things can happen, certain arts address certain "issues" better than others. There are times when Greco is THE thing to do in "trapping" range, but times like knife attack when it is not.
Also I know more people who take kenpo, Karate, Kung Fu Tae Kwon DO than I do Greco or Bjj people also there are a TON of schools that teach those arts and a FEW that teach Greco, NHB, Bjj. So the chances of a bad guy being trained in NHB, Greco, or BJJ is less than being trained in one of the others. And Jun Fan and Kali "trapping" handle the "clasical" systems well in my experience.
I feel that the issue with "complex" trapping was never if it "worked" anyone who rolled in Chi sao knows it "works" If you get the reference points, I think the issue is do people get the reference points? If you train with BJJ people or Greco People maybe not, if you train with others then yes!
Also the sensitivity and reflexes developed by doing hours of "trapping Drills" do come in is Greco as well. So just some thoughts here...
Lock Flows
At first I Jumped on the "bandwagon" and said these things are useless... What caused me to form that opinion was Matt's video where he showed side control and explained that your better off knowing Kimura, Americanan, and straight arm bar and training them against resistance, getting timing than knowing lock flows..
BUT, While I agree with the timing and resistance idea, I have many times in all out sparring come up with a lock because I knew so many variations, if you only know to look for three locks, then how many chances are you missing because you can't see them? I remember I posted a story here of one time when I was attacked at my house, I remember that the bad guy got to my back and I looked down and saw his foot between my legs and all of a sudden "rememberd" a technique where you grab and lift the heel and straighten the leg and sit on the knee. and I tried it and SLAM!! His head hit the ground HARD! There was not much fight after that. And that was a direct result of just being exposed to so many different techniques that I was able to recognize an opprotunity!
Many times watching my students grapple (sparring) I see so many things they "could" do and I yell out, take his hand there, now bend it... No no... LOL! They are like WHAT?!?!? They don't see it I feel if they KNEW what was "possible" they would be better equipped to take advantage of what is given them.
Also Look at Eric Paulson, he does lock flows and uses his art real time against skilled opponants...
Set Patterns
Burton, one thing I am teaching my student Ryan (the guy who I was training today in the basement) is a drill you put on your FIRST video for Unique, you called it a true arts alliance drill is was a combination of footwork and Siniwalli do you remember that?
Anyway, I learned it the first day I got the video, stayed there rewind, rewind LOL! I loved it! Then what I did on my own was make variations on it where I combined different footwork patterens with combinations of siniwalli drills...
Anyway we are working that, so far he has kab Kab into open four count, into open Six into closed four into Heaven six then standard six... (with the footwork) He LOVES it because he is SO messed up! LOL! His coordination is being tested big time and he feels it and see's it improving. He is learning to recognize some empty hand things by referencing back to the sticks.
Now why do I love this drill? Because it forces you to grow beyond what your comfortable doing! Putting certain footwork together with certain stick patterens JUST DON'T FEEL NATURAL! LOL! That's the idea, in sparring under pressure you are going to fall back into what you can do well, you will never grow beyond what you can already do. But Drills like those force you to expand what is possible or comfortable for you, so in the heat of the momment in sparring, it might come out. Maybe not the exact movement, but the "attribute"...
I am just sharing some path notes from where I am at in my process, everything is "fluid" (Stole that from the daily war briefings
) I think HARD sparring is essential, but I also think that allot of the "old Stuff" may be valuable too! Marc Denny said the Warriors of old used drills to train, but nowadays people are trying to use drills to "create" warriors! I Think Hard sparring is what we all need to provide the experience of being a warrior so maybe we can "see" the value of the drill... Look at Guro Inosanto, he sparred HARD with Bruce and from what I hear (Burton should know) The Old Kali Academy rock and rolled as well. Maybe he teaches some of these drills now because he see's the value, and maybe he "see's" because of the hard sparring?
I would really appericiate your thoughts Burton and others pro or con for what I have written, we are all in this together united on the path of self discovery!
best,
-Rick
LOL!
Why do you value them so much?
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