Differences between MMA and JKDU

[Kirves]

Not thinking about the obvious (i.e. weapons techniques and defences), what are the main things that separate the JKDU curriculum from "the usual MMA curriculum"? I mean, usually when one goes to a MMA club, they practice all ranges (except weapons), they use stuff from boxing/thaiboxing, bjj, wrestling, submission wrestling and so on. How is this different from the JKDU?

And more importantly, how easy is it to turn a MMA student/fighter into a JKDU student/fighter? What changes would that require?

PS. With "MMA club" I'm not referring to any specific NHB rule set, around here all the MMA clubs train for several kinds of tournament events with differing rules so they are quite versatile and flexible in that area.

[Burton]

Excellent question Kirves. Tactics change when the rules change. If my first goal is to knock out or submit my opponent, I will have certain routes and strategies. In JKDU, our first goal is to "GO HOME SAFELY". This was made painfully obvious by the recent incident in San Francisco. We therefore practice escape routes from each range. Since we allow "foul" tactics, the clinch changes dramatically. Kickboxing changes as the first priority becomes defending and delivering kicks to the groin instead of the leg kicks. We recently had a very good kickboxer come to our school in Honolulu. During sparring, he couldn't stop the groin kick. He just wasn't used to it, just as someone without Thai boxing training can't deal with the leg kick.
Ground changes too as we prioritize the choke. We will often pass up armbars to make the extra effort to get to the choke because it will take anyone out. People can still fight after an armbar or foot lock, especially when on drugs. An unconcious opponent is a safe opponent. We do practice mass attack also, and we always are looking for a weapon. This changes the focus of the training.
A MMA fighter can adapt very quickly to JKDU, but he or she does have to put in the training to shore up these other areas. My point is that I think it is better for the average person to train for the street, then make a training adjustment for a tournament instead of training for a tournament and having to try to make an adjustment in a street encounter that you suddenly find yourself in.

[Kirves]

Thank you for the response!

[Kirves]

Well, well. Just as I thought I got all the answers I was looking for, I noticed I must ask some more.

So, if we leave the weapons, multiple attacker scenarios, focus on 'escaping the situation' and those aspects not found in typical MMA curriculum out of the question, and just focus on the basic one-on-one training session and techniques, how much does JKDU differ from the typical MMA system of MT+BJJ+SW+Wrestling+whatever? To make this more precice, how much of "the usual Bruce Lee/JKD/Jun Fan" stuff is in the JKDU system to distinct the one-on-one techniques from the "common MMA techniques"? I hope you get my meaning, it is hard to phrase it just right so there'd be no need for further clarification...

[Burton]

For one on one it looks like MMA with groin kicks prioritized over leg kicks, along with eye strikes and throat grabs sprinkled in. We test everything through sparring, as does MMA. Our priorities are still a bit different in a one on one, but other than a few foul tactics (which we don't rely on because they don't always work), it is very much like high level, well-rounded MMA. If you are wondering about the trapping from JF JKD, no, we don't train that. It just doesn't hold up under real conditions.

Where do you train?

[Kirves]

Originally posted by Burton
If you are wondering about the trapping from JF JKD, no, we don't train that. It just doesn't hold up under real conditions.

I see. What about all these "five angles of attack" and other stuff we read from Tao of JKD and frequently see in other JKD curricula? Do you focus on the Bruce Lee JKD stuff among the MMA training, or have you also dropped those aspects of JKD?

Where do you train?

At the moment, I'm looking for a club to join. One that looks good to me is a "Pancrese" club, a modern MMA club with an instructor who has won some national SW, SF and BJJ tournaments (the MMA/NHB scene is quite small here still and these accomplishments aren't as meaningful as if they were in some other country where NHB has been around longer).

[ryanhall]

Nice posts, Burton.

[Burton]

5 (or 8 or 12) angles of attack are from Kali. It is good for stick and knife fighting, just to define where a shot is coming from. I do use BL's 5 ways of attack to analyze a student's sparring habits. It is a good tool to round our their tactics and keep them from being one dimensional.

[Tom Yum]

Burton, what intensity level do your students train? What I mean by intensity is not whether they give it their maximum focus and speed for a drill or excercise, rather level of contact for each drill assuming their is direct contact (such as sparring)

Do they go at it 100% all of the time or maybe 40-50% most of the time and then 70-80% once in a while.

It seems like students benefit most somewhere between 30-60% most of the time, while some exceptions go 10% or 99%. The 30-60% seems like it is just enough technique to condition a student with mild contact while still allowing them enough control to think about what they are doing.

In a different example...

Holding the thai pads can feel like conditioning to me, especially if the kicker is extremely explosive for their size and is trying to send me into the next room. Some guys have more pushing force in their kicks, but some have shattering power that doesn't move you as much but rattles your rib cage and mid section.

[Kirves]

Yeah, I was talking about Lee's ways (a.k.a. "angles") of attack, not the kali angles. What I mean with these questions is, that how much of the stuff Lee outlined in Tao are you using and how much have you abandoned from that stuff? For example (just an example) do you prefer leading with the stronger side (as Lee did) or do you prefer to lead with the weaker side? Of course one should be able to fight from either, but preferences are preferences... So, the meaning of all these questions is (again a different wording ): if we compare a "standard" MMA/NHB fighter with a JKDU fighter, do you plainly see that "one has read Lee's Tao, and one hasn't"?

[Burton]

Intensity is up to the individual student, as they have different goals. Just like lifting weights. Some want to be professional bodybuilders, and must train with great intensity. Others just want to tone, so less intensity. Ideally, I think going about 60% most of the time is good for progress, and greatly lessens the chance for injury. Instructors must go 100% for their test, and therefore must sometimes train at 100% in class. On Thai pads, focus mitts, kicking shields, it is almost always 100%. We use equipment so that we can go all-out without injury. Sparring is where we vary the resistance in accordance with the individual's goals. The main thing from the Tao is to spar all out (at times) and to always look to improve our performances. Which lead is forward, depends on the person, as do many of the techniques, as they are constantly modified. Aloha!

[Tom Yum]

Mahalo! That was quite informative.

[Kirves]

So, if I understand correctly, your version of JKD is much closer to the standard MMA/NHB systems, than the usual Jun Fan Kung Fu/JKD systems, and you have taken more liberties from the Tao than many of the other styles. You have really made it more of your own style, than simply following in Lee's footsteps by studying Jun Fan, Wing Chun, "the original JKD" and what have we... Did I get it right?

And another thing: are there some things that you specifically dislike or have deliberately dropped from your JKD system that are found in the Tao?

[Burton]

What I do when I spar is "my" style for the moment. What I teach is a broader scope, because there are certain techniques that I don't like for myself that may suit others. As a teacher, I must give my students the ability to create their own "style". I did not just make up some style that I like, but it developed on its own through training with many top fighters, and then putting in the sparring time. Therefore, it is not contrived from my head, but has evolved from the laboratory. (And continues to evolve.)
We don't do compound trapping from JFJKD. We don't do chi sao either, as it turns out that there are more efficient means of developing functional sensitivity at that range. The main thing is training with resistance in all the ranges. The three pillars are: Training Methods, Techniques, and Tactics. Aloha!

[HITJKD]

To continue with this line of questioning Burt, do you guys train the pre-contact phase as well as the post contact phase - ie. verbal diffusion skills and neutral stances for the pre-contact and legal issues, critical wound management, and dealing with the authorities for the post-contact phase? How about scenario training? Do you train any of that?

Thanks for any response. :>