Why is Western Boxing not considered to be a "True" Martial Art?

[BaguaBoxer]

competiton

first of all competiotn relates to sports which I have competed in but I train to make sure some a$$wadd who thinks he can fight doesn't kill me or whip my ass...or god forbid I have to defend my family country or self in an actual battle or war. Jubajai I don't know why you have a hardon for me you even follow my posts on threads your not on but unless your gonna actually post something other than smarta$$ comments about my posts the piss off cause i'm sure i'm not the only one tired of you. And further more my typing skill may not be that great because I spend a majority of my time training in real martial arts.

[koto_ryu]

Koto Ryu if you were a chick I would be in love with you...bar fighting rocks

Son, you're about to get the taste slapped out of your mouth for that comment

[koto_ryu]

why is it that the fights can last 15 3minute rounds without anyone being knocked unconscience.

Mostly due to poor dynamics. Nobody anymore teaches shifts or trigger steps and a lot of "lost" knowledge. My trainer, Paul Lucas, broke his cherry and worked under Cus D'Amato for years back in the day before he went off on his own. D'Amato helped make Tyson such a savage puncher in his day, as well as many many other boxers of note. Very few pros nowadays can hit like the old-timers. There are still some around however: Roberto Duran for example. Guy knocked out a runaway horse once with one punch, now thats what I call power, especially for a dude that weighed around 132 at the time They don't call him "Hands of Stone" for nothing (though nowadays "Cheeks of Paper" would be more appropriate: boy gets a lot of cuts).

[koto_ryu]

first of all competiotn relates to sports which I have competed in but I train to make sure some a$$wadd who thinks he can fight doesn't kill me or whip my ass...

So what about the asswad that can fight? Sorry, had to throw that one in there.

[medic06]

Mostly due to poor dynamics. Nobody anymore teaches shifts or trigger steps and a lot of "lost" knowledge. My trainer, Paul Lucas, broke his cherry and worked under Cus D'Amato for years back in the day before he went off on his own. D'Amato helped make Tyson such a savage puncher in his day, as well as many many other boxers of note. Very few pros nowadays can hit like the old-timers. There are still some around however: Roberto Duran for example. Guy knocked out a runaway horse once with one punch, now thats what I call power, especially for a dude that weighed around 132 at the time They don't call him "Hands of Stone" for nothing (though nowadays "Cheeks of Paper" would be more appropriate: boy gets a lot of cuts).

That and the fact if you put two close to equally skilled fighters together their will be alot of missing and glancing blows. It's difficult to hit a moving target which changes directions randomly. However, you put a skilled boxer with decent power and timing against the average joe, you are going to see a pretty short fight.

[GonzoStyles]

wow did this thread get off track

ok lets try and take it back to the source, alot of Martial "artists" have opinions on what is and isnt a martial art. Boxing has been around since the dawn of time, hence terms like shadow-boxing, so long ago that people checked their form by actually watching the shadow they cast.

Bare-Knuckle matches are the best way of proving that boxing is a martial art. Lenny MacLean was the last bare-knuckle boxer of reknown, his apperances in Guy Ritchie movies as a mobster give you an idea of just what a scary individual he was but his biography " the Governor" reveils a different side of the man.

Bareknuckle boxing was fought by prize ring rules which are VERY different than the "Marquis of Queensbury" style that is used today.

in a bareknuckle match a "round" was when 1 boxer for any reason took a knee or was knocked down in which case he had 10 seconds to rise and come to a line marked in the center of the ring (or area designated) the "scratch line", hence the term "coming up to scratch" The blows were more limited being that if you strike a skull with a closed fist the skull usually wins out. the pugilists of the day would strike mainly for the jaw, although the temple/ear would work as well. Body shots were used to take the steam out of a fighter and cause his guard to drop same as today. So pretty much the same stuff just very limited in applications. As the boxing historians say "in those days when someone threw a punch it was a news event"

so with the close proximity of the fist to the head and lack of protection to the hands these fights could end very quickly, or if both contestants were seasoned fighters they could last for an hour or more of continous stalking.
as far as I can tell the Jab was the beginning of todays "sweet science"
as the left (or off) hand was primarily for defense/counter shots although the lead left hook was very much a part of the skilled pugilist arsenal.

just my thoughts

[bodhisattva]

That and the fact if you put two close to equally skilled fighters together their will be alot of missing and glancing blows. It's difficult to hit a moving target which changes directions randomly. However, you put a skilled boxer with decent power and timing against the average joe, you are going to see a pretty short fight.

Yes. True. Very short.

In highschool, I remember one fight where I heard "he was a boxer" comments - at last two of them.

"Fight was on the stair well, it's already over, he was a boxer" basically, and the other was "Yeah, he was just a little guy, but when he hit him blood flew all over...Someone said he was a boxer."

--In response to thread-topic-question: If it isn't considered a true martial art, it's because the guy you are talking to has probably not boxed for very long, or at all. Or, it's because the guy recognizes that boxing has no defense against wrestling within it already, but respects it as striking system.

[Ground Pounder]

Here is my 2 cents...

You have to go back to when boxing started...
Where did it come from?

Martial arts like anything in life is always changing and martial arts itself is growing faster than anything I know of. Anyone whos says that boxing or "western boxing" is not concerned to be a martial art is a complete moron. A boxers hands are more dangerous than any other hands in the world and thats a fact. Why? Because they take the 1-5 punches they learn and learn to apply them in a ring. They don't do what a normal every day martial artists does and learn the 1000 moves/katas you have to learn to become a black belt. How is a martial artist ever going to perfect/learn to apply a technique without ever using them in a real situation?

Everyone takes martial arts for a certain reason or another... Some take it for spiritual reasons, others to get into shape, others for a hobby, and some so they know in a situation they can take care of themselves and their loved ones, and some for all of the above. Me I take it for the competition, knowledge and because I love it all around. But the main reason I take MA is to be able to show the punk up that tries to do something to my family or myself. This is why I only take MA styles that I know are practical.

You can call any of these what you want but I will say this as a former MA instructor. I have taken various styles from all over hard/soft styles. In anything from Judo/JujItsu/Aiki JuJitsu/Tae KwonDo/Kung Fu San Soo/Tang Soo Do/Mui Tai/Savate/Sambo/"boxing"/freestyle wrestling". The list goes on and on.

Any real good "well rounded" martial artist will agree that you can't commit yourself to on style or you are short changing yourself. The male ego can seriously get in the way of your becomming a well rounded martial artist. Alot of egotistical martial artist like to say they have a 7th degree in whatever and a 3rd degree in this and this...

I will say I have a several blackbelts and they dont mean a thing. They are simply a knowledge of what you know. Not so much of what you can do or know you can apply. In a self defense or fight I will put my $ on the person that knows 3 things good. Boxing "best for hands" next is kempo "if they spar hard alot". Mui Tai/Savate for kicking knees elbows... And a mix of Wrestling "preferably freestyle" with Russian Sambo and JuJitsu depending on how they are built...

So the hole point being if I take my own system and throw it together from various styles for myself, I can't use boxing in it because it's not a martial art? WOW! I think anyone that leaves the 1-5 punches of boxing being jab, right cross/right straight, left hook, and the 4/5 upper cuts is short changing themself out of some seriously very effective, very powerful, very applicable techniques.

I will say this in closing... If I ever get where I want to and some day create my own style/system of martial arts, its going to consist of nothing to do with a black belt at all. I think the belt system is a $ getting system that goes against martial arts. "thats my opinion". My system will teach "punching kicking and grappling". Punching mainly from boxing and get into the ring and box only. Kicking from mainly Mui Tai again get into the ring and concentrate on Mui Tai only, and grappling a huge variety from everything with Judo/JuJitsu/wrestling/sambo and so on. Anyone that knows how to use their hands and feet with elbows knees and can grapple well is a serious weapon and I would feel sorry for the person that only knew how to grapple or only knew how to box or only knew whatever. If I only knew boxing and I was going to go against someone that knew how to box and kick, I would expect that they are planning on kicking the crap out of me just beacause they know I cant kick...

Enuff said phew!

Ground And Pound 'em!

[academian]

Because it isnt a martial art: Its insanity!

[goodun]

training

try out this site i found on training, i dont think its finished but it looks good, http://boxingkent00.tripod.com

[Ground Pounder]

Boxing is a martial art, or at least, a pursuit of combative skills (if that's how we're defining martial art, anyhow.). If you define martial art as the dictionary does, then karate, judo, and most other systems out there don't qualify either, because "martial" in the sense of combatives is "of or having to do with war." When's the last time you saw the Army raid a compound using reverse punches?

Anyway, boxing is a lot more than 5 punches and some footwork. It's learning to apply footwork, defensive movements, evasions, blocking, sectoring, countering, leading, feints, drawing, and a thousand other concepts to make those five punches effective. In fact, looking at the definition of "art" as a personal expression of inspiration, boxing is probably a lot more "artful" than a system that tries to categorize or standardize every conceivable response to every conceivable attack. Where's the room for expression in that?

Basically, I think this subject comes down to whether you personally consider it a martial art or not. Most boxers not only don't care, the thought never crosses their mind. Most martial artists on the other hand want everything they do to be martial arts, because God forbid they learn something useful from a sport. In the end, whether it's a martial art or not, it's got some damned useful training methods and techniques, and it's a very realistic approach to learning to fight. The training method is the same as (not just similar to) the application. So if martial artists want to borrow from that, more power to us! If we want to shun it because boxing isn't a proper martial art, I can promise you that the boxing community won't mind that either.

Smart man... I will say this... I feel sorry for the guys learning how to do acrobatic kicks spinning back fist lol. Most the time they end up on the ground by their own doing while the opponent watches them fall on their ass. I will always except boxing as a form of martial art simply because it's proven more effective than any other style in anything in MA. And thats a fact. The footwork the defense everything in it. Bruce Lee took Ali's boxing footwork and mastered it better than even Ali did.

Ground and Pound 'Em

[bodhisattva]

Boxing is a martial art, or at least, a pursuit of combative skills (if that's how we're defining martial art, anyhow.). If you define martial art as the dictionary does, then karate, judo, and most other systems out there don't qualify either, because "martial" in the sense of combatives is "of or having to do with war." When's the last time you saw the Army raid a compound using reverse punches?

Anyway, boxing is a lot more than 5 punches and some footwork. It's learning to apply footwork, defensive movements, evasions, blocking, sectoring, countering, leading, feints, drawing, and a thousand other concepts to make those five punches effective. In fact, looking at the definition of "art" as a personal expression of inspiration, boxing is probably a lot more "artful" than a system that tries to categorize or standardize every conceivable response to every conceivable attack. Where's the room for expression in that?

Basically, I think this subject comes down to whether you personally consider it a martial art or not. Most boxers not only don't care, the thought never crosses their mind. Most martial artists on the other hand want everything they do to be martial arts, because God forbid they learn something useful from a sport. In the end, whether it's a martial art or not, it's got some damned useful training methods and techniques, and it's a very realistic approach to learning to fight. The training method is the same as (not just similar to) the application. So if martial artists want to borrow from that, more power to us! If we want to shun it because boxing isn't a proper martial art, I can promise you that the boxing community won't mind that either.

All true. All true.

But the true definition of Art isn't just expression. It comes from the term "Arts and Sciences". And in that, it's definition is to use a personal ability to derive a favorable result from the physical world. Basically, directing the body with the mind to get a useful result from that which is outside of you.

I am not contradicting you. I am really just adding to your definition.

That's what makes boxing a martial art to me, and makes Tae Kwon Do NOT a martial art (as practiced by 99% of the TKD schools out there, anyway). Because Tae Kwon Do can NOT help one's mind to use the body to get a favorable result from the physical world. It will do the opposite. And that is NOT artful.

But Boxing on the other hand, probably WILL help you keep your wallet in your pants and the idiots in the locker room off of you.

[bodhisattva]

Be careful not to try and impose your own definition of "favorable" on every martial artist in the world, Bodhi. I think from past discussions we can agree on most aspects of training, and I think we both prefer a reality-based approach over virtually anything else. But remember, man - what a person gets out of any activity is favorable if it keeps them happy. Some folks ONLY want to be able to lock out a head-high side kick at a forms competition or backflip and throw a 540 degree half gainer whatever-kick to impress judges. If that's what puts a smile on their face, and it helps them live healthier, what's so unfavorable about that? It's tough to step back and realize sometimes that martial art isn't JUST about self-defense. In fact, I'd say the need for self-defense comes up a heck of a lot less than the need for a tournament competitor to throw an impressive but functionally useless kick. Granted, when the need does arise, it's on a whole other plateau of importance, but my point is simply that we have to guard against applying our own values and judgements to everyone else. That's how the great misunderstandings and feuds and political BS going on in the martial arts world got started in the first place. My take on it? For what it's worth, I say let everyone do whatever the heck they like, for whatever reasons they like it, and train the way you feel is most rewarding to you. Leave converting the rest of the world to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

No argument here.

I only argue with people who say the 540 degree half gainer kick will work for them when Big Charlie wants to take his lunch money and half his face. I do not ever argue that people should give up gymnastic martial arts - especially if they enjoy them.

It's very easy to think, from my posts, that I'm this "clip-it" wearing, BOXING IS EVERYTHING individual. Man, nothing could be farther from the truth - I'm no tough guy. I'm just a guy that did Tae Kwon Do, Lung Do KungFu, and Isshin Ryu Karate for most of pre-teen and teen years. I'm a tad bitter with teachers that tell people similar arts are useful for defense, sometimes instructing them to use these skills against knife wielding attackers (crescent kick was recommended for this in my TKD class).. Then we'd go back to our karate kid point sparring.

It was a waste of time. So I tell people that sort of training won't help them fight - if they aren't there to learn to fight, then this is no issue for them. I do it because I really wish someone would have told me. But I don't tell them to stop doing something they love doing for the pure joy of doing it. KEEP doing anything you love. I just let them know that a spinning heel kick is more likely to get them beat up than to save their lives. It's easy to lose sight of my point, I can understand why you are rankled.

But I never tell a person to stop doing something they love. Martial arts, for me, is just a more interesting form of running. Nothing hurts me more, and nothing seems to be quite the same as it, and my personal, individual choice is to only practice the best technology I can find - as a sport. I admire and enjoy watching the wu-shu guys. I even find myself wondering "I wonder if that could be applied here in this situation when.." at some of their more gymnastic things. I'm not so closed minded as I appear. But I share it as I see it - this is a forum.

No argument from me with any of your points. Great points! Reality guys seem to lose site of this stuff all too frequently! For a person with any sense at all, fights aren't really going to come up in life. So why not do Wu-Shu or some other flashy style? I agree, in fact, I've been really interested in gymnastics lately..I think possibly in a future world, gymnastics will be far more interesting than contact sports..

[medic06]

One of the biggest problems that I've noticed in most MAs is that they simply do not train the basics hard enough. Somewhere along the line the emphasis has shifted from quality to quantity. Real skill has been replaced with flash. That's one thing I've noticed boxers have over the average martial artist, a sound grasp of some basic skills. So while a boxer may not have as many "techniques" as the average martial artist, the skill in what they have is much better.

As far as traditional stances go, they make sense if you look at them from the point of view of them being exaggerations of natural body postures which occur in a fight. For example, if you throw a right cross from a boxing stance, and then spread your feet wider and bend you fron knee a little, then you have something pretty similar to a front stance (or forward stance, or bow stance, whatever you want to call it). I personally believe these positions were exaggerated as a training method to teach proper body position. I don't think they were meant to be used in a fight. It's kind of like pushups, they help you develop attributes for fighting but were not intended to be used in a fight.

[Tant01]

.... So while a boxer may not have as many "techniques" as the average martial artist, the skill in what they have is much better.

As far as traditional stances go, they make sense if you look at them from the point of view of them being exaggerations of natural body postures which occur in a fight. ...
.....

Without having read the whole thread (just this page) I have to say that the training methods are what make a man ready to stand up to adversity better than some others.

I think it was Darwin that said "(it's) not the strongest of the species that survive nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change" A boxer trains toe to toe with contact a guy that only knows forms is much further out of his environment than a boxer in a "real" fight.

What about the natural reflex responses to sudden unknown or suspected threats?

People have a natural tendency to crouch or duck and lower their stance while raising their arms and hands up to protect their head. We can see reactions like this to sudden shocking things like gunshots or explosions or almost any violent or traumatic event. The second most common reaction to a threat is backing away (if it's right in front of you) The field of view becomes restricted to "tunnel" vision so we need to increase the distance to get more visual information to our brain. If you'd like to read an excellent article about related academic research into this I have it handy... it's called "The Anatomy Of Fear and How It Relates To Survival Skills Training"

It's kinda like saying "use the Somatic Reflex Potentiation response" when you could just say "penetrate and dominate"...