Why is Western Boxing not considered to be a "True" Martial Art?

[medic06]

good points. . .

I think the failure lies in mistaking training exercises for something else. Forms training is simple an exercise to teach . . . FORM!!! To try to use "techniques" in a fight like those done in forms would be like doing jumping jacks and push ups in the middle of a fight. The end result would be the same, you would get pounded. Form is suppose to help you develop good technique so that you can then start learning to apply it. Having good form (good technique) is only hafl the battle

To keep in the boxing analogy what most MAs have today would be like teaching bag work, shadow boxing, running, etc and calling it boxing. It's even worse is that most think they are proficient because they can hit the heavy bag or speed bag and look pretty tough.

[Tom Yum]

Tant,
Like I've said a hundred times on these boards: People like to make things more complicated than they really are.

LOL!!!!

Hey Mike, I'd like to calculate the force of my punch on impact...(remember that one )

[medic06]

Tant,
Like I've said a hundred times on these boards:

People like to make things more complicated than they really are.

It's funny, when you ask some higher ranking student of a system they usually give a long complex esoteric explanation. Then, if you ask his teacher and founder of the system, he will usually say something like "no, no, no, that's too complicated. It's just supposed to be just this. . ."

things get complex when we start looking for too many shortcuts.

[robertlee]

Boxing is different then the M/A And as far as low stance when compared to a M/A style. One needs to remember that the different types of ground played a part. Hills and flat ground. On hilly grounds you fought in a lower stance. To keep balance. On level ground stances were higher more mobile. That was what set different styles stance training. That has to be adapted and changed for need. just by raiseing the position to a higher stance. From say full horse to half horse. That simple. Remember that the different M/A s came from different regions. And the training suited that area. Boxing is a very good hands on method. And yes there are just a few hand tools. The difference is the different ways to apply the same punch.

[Tant01]

...
... One needs to remember that the different types of ground played a part. Hills and flat ground. On hilly grounds you fought in a lower stance. To keep balance. On level ground stances were higher more mobile. That was what set different styles stance training. That has to be adapted and changed for need. just by raiseing the position to a higher stance. From say full horse to half horse. That simple. Remember that the different M/A s came from different regions. And the training suited that area. ....
...

Horse? Stance?

"A stance is at most a reminder, a stage one passes through momentarily on
the way to somewhere else. A static position leads to static fighting and thinking... A skilled opponent can look at someone's stance and have a pretty good idea of the opponent's training, skills and tactics. It is best not to give an enemy such an advantage".

Cassimore Magda

[robertlee]

True But several people have made comments about M/A type of stance. And this does not compare to boxing. And M/A stance was set for different ground levels. Stance is but a small moment in combat. ever changeing in foot work.

[HtTKar]

One of the biggest problems that I've noticed in most MAs is that they simply do not train the basics hard enough

This is becoming a great discussion..

I remember as a child when my father was teaching me. All I learned for YEARS were stances, throwing punches, falling, and movement. I'm glad what he taught me works for me, because I find myself going back to those old boxing stances all the time.

It does seem that most dojos just rush people through the basics, and then on to more "fun" things, to keep it interesting. I know for sure that if all a dojo did was teach stances and strikes for years before progressing, most people would quit out of boredom. Eventhough these are exactly the traits that you need to be a good fighter. Because you keep reverting to your basics when your under real stress...at least I do.

In my opinion it would be much more beneficial to hone punches and kicks to a tee through practicing your basics. Then learn how to block through actual sparring, at least until the student reaches a higher level of understanding to where they can bring things into a fight that they learn from outside. Boxing does this...teaches the basics, has you use them through competition, and then furthers your developement based on what YOU need to be a better competitor. It's so tailored to the individual, and that's what makes boxers so great.

[bodhisattva]

Boxing does this...teaches the basics, has you use them through competition, and then furthers your developement based on what YOU need to be a better competitor. It's so tailored to the individual, and that's what makes boxers so great.

Yeah. That's the difference between a "teacher/sifu/sensei" mindset and a "coach/gym" mindset.

The coach is going to look at what you are and how you do it naturally, and build and improve that. That's what gyms are for... ...giving you the method by which you can flesh out your own truth.

A teacher/sensei type is more going to give you a static piece of coursework that everyone does, and teach a particular style or way of fighting - rather than give students the tools to find what works for them personally.

[medic06]

Stance is but a small moment in combat. ever changeing in foot work.

BINGO!!!

[medic06]

This is becoming a great discussion..

I remember as a child when my father was teaching me. All I learned for YEARS were stances, throwing punches, falling, and movement. I'm glad what he taught me works for me, because I find myself going back to those old boxing stances all the time.

It does seem that most dojos just rush people through the basics, and then on to more "fun" things, to keep it interesting. I know for sure that if all a dojo did was teach stances and strikes for years before progressing, most people would quit out of boredom. Eventhough these are exactly the traits that you need to be a good fighter. Because you keep reverting to your basics when your under real stress...at least I do.

In my opinion it would be much more beneficial to hone punches and kicks to a tee through practicing your basics. Then learn how to block through actual sparring, at least until the student reaches a higher level of understanding to where they can bring things into a fight that they learn from outside. Boxing does this...teaches the basics, has you use them through competition, and then furthers your developement based on what YOU need to be a better competitor. It's so tailored to the individual, and that's what makes boxers so great.

During my very brief stint in boxing, my coach would not let me anywhere near the ring until I got the basic skills down.

The trick is to work the basics enough so that you can step in the ring and go to the next level. Just jumping in the ring right off wont' do you any good. the basics have to be natural motions otherwise you will wind up throwing bad loopy punches, windmilling, etc.

[Tant01]

.... Rather than encouraging people to go out and explore and find their own experience, instructors worry about sending students' dollars out to explore with them, and so it becomes more of a cult than a school or a gym. It's the biggest reason I don't teach out of a school anymore, and it's the biggest reason I chose to focus on boxing. As crooked as the Boxing world is made out to be, it's a lot cleaner than the martial arts world has become.

This may well be the case but some exceptions exist. I have very little in the way of formal training but informally I was encouraged to go out and "explore". (Good way to get a police record!)

I've seen what the local SD Academy has to offer, JFJKD Kickboxing, Kali and BJJ. Much better tailored to individual needs than the local Mc. Dojo but still makes me want to start a Judo club! At least the BJJ/GJJ students could learn the Japanese names for their "Brazilian" techniques...

[Tom Yum]

This may well be the case but some exceptions exist. I have very little in the way of formal training but informally I was encouraged to go out and "explore". (Good way to get a police record!)

I've seen what the local SD Academy has to offer, JFJKD Kickboxing, Kali and BJJ. Much better tailored to individual needs than the local Mc. Dojo but still makes me want to start a Judo club! At least the BJJ/GJJ students could learn the Japanese names for their "Brazilian" techniques...

Hey man, I thought you said you were a BB in judo

[Tant01]

Hey man, I thought you said you were a BB in judo

That was the "formal" part of my training. It means little to me. Learning throws, forms and non english words gave me a starting point for the informal "Navy Judo" (CQC, CQB, Stick, knife and gun PLAY) I spent the better part of 14 years trying to forget the graphic details. But I'm cool now, really. I got my "Ju" back!

[Tant01]

I'm a what?

Hey man, I thought you said you were a BB in judo

Wait, I'm pretty sure YOU said I was a BB in Judo... That was 23 years ago! I'm sure if I tested now I could play with the 2 dans My Japanese is rusty and my bones are old but maybe I could teach? I never got to go pro. but ya can't help but wonder "what if?" I don't really consider "Door Man" to be professional experience either... I want to play with the Machado team or actually study at the Kodokan Academy. I want to choke out a Gracie or even loose badly at ADCC...
Dreams of the dead dinosaurs... Back in the day it was "that pinko wanna be moviestar BL and his wussie kung-fu" and how "I'd break his skinny little neck in a REAL fight" No offense intended, I like JKD but our military attitude at that time was "cold" (Especially toward Communist countries) I'd like to hang out with "real" artists and be known for my humility and humor. I guess having met and trained in a few seminars would be "formal" training but I didn't actually roll with the big guns myself. The most recent guy was a 5th dan in BJJ by the name of Santos, (Fabio sp.?) I lost interest after about three hours of shoot defense techniques and felt like I wasted 75 dollars.
Again, no offense intended, I like BJJ/GJJ too but there were many white annd blue belts and only one or two "advanced" students. I suppose I'm doomed to be an unknown amateur enthusiast or maybe a recreational artist? Good enough...

[SimonM]

The only points I don't consider important are the "asia" related ones. Capoeira, Savate and Systema are three examples of non-asian martial arts that are considered such.