Why is Western Boxing not considered to be a "True" Martial Art?

[Boxing Master]

Kung Fu fighter vs. Western Boxer in theory

1.Boxing is a very good martial art, but it's too limited. A good kung fu fighter would be conditioned and prepared to take the punches of boxing.

2. Footwork and speed are essential in decent Chinese martial arts as well. That's why in good schools they drill the horse stance so much, so you can have extremely strong legs. Up against a good kung fu fighter, the kung fu person is likely going to have strong forearms, strong as hell legs, and strong knuckles and arms, and they will likely be fast. Good boxers have all these attributes too, however, the boxer likely won't have the kicking ability of the kung fu person.

3.Also, conventional boxing these days can be bad for real fighting, because if you train to punch with gloves on, you don't train right for a realistic fight. Punching without gloves on is different. No one can make a full fist with boxing gloves on, so how one punches without gloves is a bit different. Kung fu people, if they train correctly, train without gloves on except when maybe sparring to avoid injuries to each other. Unless you mean like combat boxing, which is different than the sport boxing. But a good kung fu person should be very capable of holding their own with a good boxer of approximately the same skill, fighting-wise.

4.And don't forget in a mean fight, a kung fu person would probably try to kick out the knees of the boxer. A good fighter who attempts that knows to protect their own legs as well. Boxing doesn't teach how to attack or protect the legs. Boxing is good for a fight if you're like, "Alright, let's have a go to see who is more skilled" but pure boxing against pure raw, hard-core kung fu, the boxer will lose if the kung fu person is determined to win (if the kung fu person has trained well). Personally, I always thought boxing was a great way to supplement kung fu and karate training and all those. I think every martial art, except maybe like Pankration and Muay Thai, should have cross-training in boxing. No other martial art really teaches one to punch like boxing. Boxing is the great art of punching. Or how to punch someone and not get punched back, and also how to take hits. But boxing by itself against good kung fu of equal skill and conditioning will lose.

5.The problem is, the scenario I just described above usually doesn't happen because people who practice boxing are usually in good shape whereas the average Joe Schmoe "I take karate (or kung fu) class" dude has about as much conditioning as a lemon.

6.a good karateka or a good kung fu person is a tough opponent to take down. Since karate and kung fu have been so commercialized and have so many crap people in them, these arts have a bad rep.

7.So I consider boxing a martial art, absolutely, but it needs to be combined with something else, but a martial artist should combine it with something else.

8.even if one has no real kicking skills, one should ALWAYS know how to protect their legs from other kickers or fighters.

1. Yes and No. It depends the Kung Fu fighter trains. Boxers who train correctly are trained to hit fast and furious in multiple combinations from multiple angles both offensively and defensively. The are well conditioned athletes that can not only endure long bouts, but also the trauma of strikes and blows that go along with the bouts, and still be able to deliver execeptional strikes in return. True, Boxing is limited in regards to using the whole body as a direct weapon(kicks), and has limited grappling(clinching only) what to say it is too limited is not realistic, especially with all of the combinations, punches, footwork, blocks, parries, body maneuvers, styles, strategies and the like that a Boxer trains to use in a fight. The Boxer uses his whole body as weapon, but not in terms of striking, as with other MA's.

2. True that Boxers will not have the kicking ability, that why it is called Boxing(No pun or disrespect intended).

3. Glove training should not interfere with a Boxer's punches. Matter of fact, it should teach a Boxer restraint in how much power to apply to his punches. I know in my own Boxing training I train without gloves and I am not bothered by it.

4. Western Boxing is a combat derived style/sport. True combat boxing is different than sport boxing, but the theories stand the same. And true a good Kung Fu fighter should be able to hold his own against a Boxer, but that goes for any kind of Martial Artist if they have been trained properly. Boxing is alot more in depth than most MA's know, especially in terms of theory and application. Boxing in its' entirety is far more than punching. A Boxer uses quick, strong, punches and punch combinations with pin point precision both offensively and defensivley, is able to block, evade, and elude any and every attack of his/her opponent through blocking, parrying and exceptional footwork, and use strategies to outhink his/her opponent. A True Boxing Master is one of the most difficult fighters for anybody, MA or not, to be able to defeat(But unlike other MA's, other a few ever reach this level of skill(i.e.: Roy Jones Jr.; Sugar Ray Robinsion, etc.).

5. True, but there are many Boxers who are not in shape to fully apply themselves either.

6. True, but that has also happened to Western Boxing also. Boxing footwork, ambidextrous ability(fighting with both hands/sides) and style adaption are three examples in today's Boxers that appear to be in lack.

7. Yes and No. That is what makes it Boxing. It's history, techniques, theories, applications, etc. is what makes it unique, just like any other Martial Art. If you have not read my post on the Boxing forum, "Who is Truly a Boxing Master" there is a small list of what applications are done in Boxing, a small portion.

8. True, if you want to know how to fully defend yourself and know what you or someone is capable of doing in a fight. Boxing is not the cure all, end all MA, nor is Kung Fu, Karate, Muay Thai, or anything else. Everything has its' own strengths and weaknesses, whether it be in theory, and or application. That is why it is good to study what other MAs entail, not only in terms of technique, but history, theory, etc. so that a MA will not only become a better fighter, but a better person as well through learning what each style is about through the individuals, places and culture(s) that create(d), adapt(ed), and (have) practice(d) it.

[Boxing Master]

Kung Fu fighter vs. Western Boxer in theory

1.Boxing is a very good martial art, but it's too limited. A good kung fu fighter would be conditioned and prepared to take the punches of boxing.

2. Footwork and speed are essential in decent Chinese martial arts as well. That's why in good schools they drill the horse stance so much, so you can have extremely strong legs. Up against a good kung fu fighter, the kung fu person is likely going to have strong forearms, strong as hell legs, and strong knuckles and arms, and they will likely be fast. Good boxers have all these attributes too, however, the boxer likely won't have the kicking ability of the kung fu person.

3.Also, conventional boxing these days can be bad for real fighting, because if you train to punch with gloves on, you don't train right for a realistic fight. Punching without gloves on is different. No one can make a full fist with boxing gloves on, so how one punches without gloves is a bit different. Kung fu people, if they train correctly, train without gloves on except when maybe sparring to avoid injuries to each other. Unless you mean like combat boxing, which is different than the sport boxing. But a good kung fu person should be very capable of holding their own with a good boxer of approximately the same skill, fighting-wise.

4.And don't forget in a mean fight, a kung fu person would probably try to kick out the knees of the boxer. A good fighter who attempts that knows to protect their own legs as well. Boxing doesn't teach how to attack or protect the legs. Boxing is good for a fight if you're like, "Alright, let's have a go to see who is more skilled" but pure boxing against pure raw, hard-core kung fu, the boxer will lose if the kung fu person is determined to win (if the kung fu person has trained well). Personally, I always thought boxing was a great way to supplement kung fu and karate training and all those. I think every martial art, except maybe like Pankration and Muay Thai, should have cross-training in boxing. No other martial art really teaches one to punch like boxing. Boxing is the great art of punching. Or how to punch someone and not get punched back, and also how to take hits. But boxing by itself against good kung fu of equal skill and conditioning will lose.

5.The problem is, the scenario I just described above usually doesn't happen because people who practice boxing are usually in good shape whereas the average Joe Schmoe "I take karate (or kung fu) class" dude has about as much conditioning as a lemon.

6.a good karateka or a good kung fu person is a tough opponent to take down. Since karate and kung fu have been so commercialized and have so many crap people in them, these arts have a bad rep.

7.So I consider boxing a martial art, absolutely, but it needs to be combined with something else, but a martial artist should combine it with something else.

8.even if one has no real kicking skills, one should ALWAYS know how to protect their legs from other kickers or fighters.

1. Yes and No. It depends the Kung Fu fighter trains. Boxers who train correctly are trained to hit fast and furious in multiple combinations from multiple angles both offensively and defensively. The are well conditioned athletes that can not only endure long bouts, but also the trauma of strikes and blows that go along with the bouts, and still be able to deliver execeptional strikes in return. True, Boxing is limited in regards to using the whole body as a direct weapon(kicks), and has limited grappling(clinching only) what to say it is too limited is not realistic, especially with all of the combinations, punches, footwork, blocks, parries, body maneuvers, styles, strategies and the like that a Boxer trains to use in a fight. The Boxer uses his whole body as weapon, but not in terms of striking, as with other MA's.

2. True that Boxers will not have the kicking ability, that why it is called Boxing(No pun or disrespect intended).

3. Glove training should not interfere with a Boxer's punches. Matter of fact, it should teach a Boxer restraint in how much power to apply to his punches. I know in my own Boxing training I train without gloves and I am not bothered by it.

4. Western Boxing is a combat derived style/sport. True combat boxing is different than sport boxing, but the theories stand the same. And true a good Kung Fu fighter should be able to hold his own against a Boxer, but that goes for any kind of Martial Artist if they have been trained properly. Boxing is alot more in depth than most MA's know, especially in terms of theory and application.

5. True, but there are many Boxers who are not in shape to fully apply themselves either.

6. True, but that has also happened to Western Boxing also.

7. Yes and No. That is what makes it Boxing. It's history, techniques, theories, applications, etc. is what makes it unique, just like any other Martial Art. If you have not read my post on the Boxing forum, "Who is Truly a Boxing Master" there is a small list of what applications are done in Boxing, a small portion.

8. True, if you want to know how to fully defend yourself and know what you or someone is capable of doing in a fight. Boxing is not the cure all, end all MA, nor is Kung Fu, Karate, Muay Thai, or anything else. Everything has its' own strengths and weaknesses, whether it be in theory, and or application. That is why it is good to study what other MAs entail, not only in terms of technique, but history, theory, etc. so that a MA will not only become a better fighter, but a better person as well through learning what each style is about through the individuals that create(d), adapt(ed), and (have) practice(d) it.

[BrotherD]

Not bad Kungfu=skilled practice=boxing

Just a couple of points no real argument here just seems like a few misconceptions.
One of the main things that is missed here is that boxing unlike it’s Asian counter part doesn’t embody a style.
It simply mean to fight (adapt and over come). So to compare it to a style of fighting will always leave an open question? Like how does a boxer handle a kicker? Answer avoid the kick, low line kicking is no more than power sweeping techniques you make contact with the leg to disrupt the balance, then you proceed to up root. Sounds familiar it should it is the basic tenants of fighting, and all MA have this philosophy. But for the sport of boxing it was removed. No need to rename boxing by calling it combat its all there everything you need to destroy your opponent is firmly entrenched in your training. Again the sport removed all of that for safety. So here we go again this is not to take away from other Boxing methods just to explain it in my own words.

3.Also, conventional boxing these days can be bad for real fighting, because if you train to punch with gloves on, you don't train right for a realistic fight. Punching without gloves on is different. No one can make a full fist with boxing gloves on, so how one punches without gloves is a bit different. Kung fu people, if they train correctly, train without gloves on except when maybe sparring to avoid injuries to each other. Unless you mean like combat boxing, which is different than the sport boxing. But a good kung fu person should be very capable of holding their own with a good boxer of approximately the same skill, fighting-wise.


"I’m not sure I agree with this due to my ring experience. Gloves or no gloves you can still break your hands
If you hit wrong, the glove do eliminate the finger jabs and now you have the thumb-less ones to prevent further damage to the eyes which was a tactic of early fighters. The Gloves also make it harder to control in the clinch. Funny this is you go on to say that Kungfu fighters use gloves to spar to prevent injuries.
Boxing in the early days were bare knuckle fights. So as the sport evolved so did the safety measures. I think the key here is don’t look at boxing from sport eyes as they don’t train to survive like in the old days where there were no rules. Fighters like Archie Moore develop fighting defenses to protect the upper body from serious harm.
His armadillo defense helps him to absorb blows, stop knees, and he can hook and tackle from the same position. Also notice how a boxer stands how he is leans forward slightly and knees slightly bent which allows him to move in or out quickly to suppress low line attacks. Not having to do so in the ring doesn’t mean that the attribute is not there it’s no longer a focus."


4.And don't forget in a mean fight, a kung fu person would probably try to kick out the knees of the boxer. A good fighter who attempts that knows to protect their own legs as well. Boxing doesn't teach how to attack or protect the legs. Boxing is good for a fight if you're like, "Alright, let's have a go to see who is more skilled" but pure boxing against pure raw, hard-core kung fu, the boxer will lose if the kung fu person is determined to win (if the kung fu person has trained well). Personally, I always thought boxing was a great way to supplement kung fu and karate training and all those. I think every martial art, except maybe like Pankration and Muay Thai, should have cross-training in boxing. No other martial art really teaches one to punch like boxing. Boxing is the great art of punching. Or how to punch someone and not get punched back, and also how to take hits. But boxing by itself against good kung fu of equal skill and conditioning will lose.

"And as for pure boxing vs pure raw kungfu well have you ever seen pure boxing and raw kungfu?
I don’t think that there would be must different unless you mean like tiger style or crane. I think if you really took an unbiased look at boxing you might see its true calling. You may even see Kungfu (skilled practice). Remember it’s a fight not a style. it embodies nothing yet has everything it is with out form. Therefore you can do anything with it. Simply put real boxing is like solving for X where the equation is you * him = X ( I don’t know). your kill vs his skill and the outcome is unknown. But what this equation will reveal is who is better at dissolving fixed and preconceived notions. Thank you I don’t want this to come off like I’m poking at you, but there is more to Boxing than what you see on T.V. On the streets it’s nothing like it is in the ring.
Peace

[T-3]

That's interesting that someone stated that boxing is " too limited." The same can be and is said about kung fu/karate. The "horse stance" is a joke. A good boxer would seriously "dance" around anyone in a horse stance. Take Roy Jones Jr., Zab Judah, and Manny Pacquiao for example, or even Roberto Druan or Sugar Ray Leonard. None of those guys would stick around long enough to wait for an answer to their combo. A good, seasoned, and well trained boxer - if he/she so chooses to call themselves such, runs at least 3-5+ times a week at least 3+ miles each run. I am not convinced that a boxer has weak legs - did you happen to check out Pacquiao's in his fight with Marquez? And I base that simply on the fact that even a decent boxer derives most if not all of his/her power from his/her lower body (waistline down, planting and pivot off toe to trunk rotation). It's also debatable if even the "most" hardcore Karate/Kung Fu practitioner can take a serious leg/knee kick or a serious left-right to the head and hook to the body combo for that matter. Boxing is a serious work-out and sport. I agree, however, that it is not "complete" self-defense but way more sufficient than any "horse stance."

[BrotherD]

Kungfu vs Boxing

http://wongkk.com/combat/boxing.html

It would seem that this question has been asked before and the kungfu stylist has the answer.
enjoy

[Tom Yum]

That's interesting that someone stated that boxing is " too limited." The same can be and is said about kung fu/karate. The "horse stance" is a joke. A good boxer would seriously "dance" around anyone in a horse stance. Take Roy Jones Jr., Zab Judah, and Manny Pacquiao for example, or even Roberto Druan or Sugar Ray Leonard. None of those guys would stick around long enough to wait for an answer to their combo. A good, seasoned, and well trained boxer - if he/she so chooses to call themselves such, runs at least 3-5+ times a week at least 3+ miles each run.

Boxing vs. Karate allready happened in the late 60's. Joe Lewis (the full contact white karate guy, not the boxer) fought a black belt in a traditional okinawa style karate. This was around the begining of the full contact karate kraze.

Anyhow, Lewis stood upright and moved with the fluidity of a boxer while throwing karate kicks and boxing style jabs and hooks, while the karate guy got into a low stance, with one hand covering his solar plexus and the other bent and up.

Lewis picked the guy off, whom had limited mobility and sent him to the canvas with a hook.

[T-3]

Interesting how Wong K. Kit knew the name of his "attacker." "Planned and ideal" scenarios are rarely ever the "reality." That was at best a very "weak" example/demonstration. I'm sure the same scene could be played in the opposite fashion with Darryl defending against Wong's kung fu stylings. Give an example of a "true" fight in (or out) a ring, not a demonstration of how Wong would defend against Darryl in a high school gym in front of a digital camera .

[BrotherD]

yup

see I don't have a problem with this per say every body does it. to promote their style. Truth is when you get right down to it you better know some crazy or you are going to get that a** beat. As for the debate when have you ever seen a world class boxer so easily handled other than going up up against a world class grappler who quickly grabs and slam. But take it to te street and you'll see a much different fight. Every body has a plan until they get hit.

[T-3]

That's cool. Thanks for your honest opinion. I agree. Ideally we'd all like to think it's a "cake-walk." In sport, the rules are set; outside of that, the variables can be extensive.

[Broadsword2004]

Why does everyone act like the horse stance is the way people train to fight in karate. That was just the old-style competition karate stance that I don't even know why it was used. Horse stance is a stance used to train for full splits, to develop tremendous leg strength, and mental strength. It allows a person to train to relax when under intensive pain, because the legs will be trembling from holding the stance after a long time. A horse stance is NOT a fighting stance. Joe Lewis the karate guy (the black boxer guy was spelled Joe Louis) is a great example of a real karate fighter. He even said that in fighting, the proper stance one uses is what works best for them. He trained for like 2 years in karate, everyday, while in Okinawa, before coming to the U.S. He was one of the meanest karate fighters to ever step into the ring. As to why karate evolved into using the horse stance to fight, back in the 60's and 70's, I don't know. Even my karate instructor said to never, ever, fight like that (in horse stance). Karate and boxing combined I think are a really great combo. But good karate fighters, even if they have never trained in boxing, do not fight from the horse stance.

Do not knock horse stance as a training exercise though. It is one of the single best exercises there are out there.

[sherwinc]

http://wongkk.com/combat/boxing.html
It would seem that this question has been asked before and the kungfu stylist has the answer.
enjoy

you know BrotherD???? this is also the way we sparr using AngKa KungFu, cause AngKa KungFu uses swinging fists as well as long-ranged straight fists.... with a combination of Tiger Styles.....

and i found that AngKa KungFu is really brutal on its effectiveness cause it always smashing its forearm against boxers forearm....

i always notice that the boxer always cover its forearm unto its body while defending my swinging fists.....

[Uchiha_Anbu]

I think a martial art is any fighting art form. Weapons, tactics, techniques, principles, physical dynamics, body conditioning, and changing from stretchs. So yea, I think boxing aught to be considered a martial art. Being able to throw a pencil into the ceiling could be considered martial art skill, if applied properly......My two cents.

[sherwinc]

I think a martial art is any fighting art form. Weapons, tactics, techniques, principles, physical dynamics, body conditioning, and changing from stretchs. So yea, I think boxing aught to be considered a martial art. Being able to throw a pencil into the ceiling could be considered martial art skill, if applied properly......My two cents.

Correction: KungFu is the right term and not Martial Art

Why????

cause KungFu means "Ability" or "Skill"

Then:

Ability or Skill of throwing a pencil into the ceiling if applied properly

And Here It Goes:

Your KungFu is good in throwing pencils into the ceiling very accurate.....

[Uchiha_Anbu]

k

[shadowkiller]

sherwinc...

Kung fu is just a word, as is martial art. Either can be used, oh and you are stupid...