1 Punch KO

[Red Rum]

It's a bold statement. His site and his chi sao structure looks good (from the photo), but to say he is the best in the world?

[Tom Yum]

However.... a wing chun punch is a deeper hit. It sinks into the target you are hitting.
I know that in the end, a wing chun punch is still a punch and yes it is a blunt object coming in, but the idea isn't really to hit your opponent with blunt force trauma
You have to remember that the whole essence of wing chun is to eliminate problems of size (smaller person vs. bigger person for example). If a smaller person was to hit me with a boxing punch, it would hurt, sure, but it wouldn't hurt as much as my punch!!

Boxers punch through their targets, with their weight behind the punch.

Part of that punching through the target is supported by push-off from the balls of the feet, shifting of the body weight in the direction of the punch, explosive rotation of the supporting hip into and throught the target and extension of the shoulder.

Hate to break it to you, but size matters too - the real catalysts of punching power is explosive bodymechanics, timing and experience.

Check out the video of Ross Enamorit, from Rossboxing.com

http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym/thegym24.htm

You can't tell me that this light weight, olympic-level guy doesn't have fast, powerful hands. One of those punches - without gloves, is going to break something. I don't care how big you are an explosive fist hitting a soft target is going to do damage.

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They cannot afford to plant their feet flat and use stancework to add weight to the punch.

No offense, but that statement shows that you've never boxed before under the instruction of even a decent-amateur level boxer.

Wing-chun punching is every bit as relaxed as boxing punching, the only difference is that so much more power is generated by a boxers punch. Consider this: the boxer's sole focus is to punch his opponent until he cannot continue fighting. This is done in real-life again and again.

Bruce Lee's Jun Fan gong fu used alot of wing-chun tools; he trained a few full-contact fighters in his day - Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris etc. While these guys were Karate and Tang Soo, respectively they applied alot of Lee's knowledge base - which came from wing chun but keep in mind Bruce borrowed just as much from boxing and to add to it, he had a very deep understanding of boxing's mechanics.

I think the real strength in wing-chun lies in its scope of infighting techniques, general striking speed and sensitivity; also being able to generate alot of explosive speed from akward positions in short distances.

[medic06]

It's a bold statement. His site and his chi sao structure looks good (from the photo), but to say he is the best in the world?

Mike said he was problably one of the best Wing Chun teachers in the world. I agree with this assessment and so does Dan Inosanto and Ajarn Chai Sirisute.

[medic06]

An example..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVE9yE3t-Mo

Mike Brewer by KO

[medic06]

It's a bold statement. His site and his chi sao structure looks good (from the photo), but to say he is the best in the world?

His chi sao is all wrong. It's rather smooth, alive, and dynamic as opposed to the choppy movements of Kamon Wing Chun

[Red Rum]

Okay first off.... the guy that Master Chan is sparring with is an ex pro (undefeated) boxer. He is one of the best boxers I have seen.
But no, I was trained boxing elsewhere.

You are right that Master Chan hasn't trained that long in boxing. I never said he had trained for years. I was just showing what I had to hand - our vids off the Kamon website. I do however believe that he is a very good boxer.

I have trained with some of the best boxers in the UK and yes I have been completely demolished by them.
They were the ones who pointed out that boxing power is limited to about 3/4 of their bodyweight, but they could create extra force through muscle and a bit of a pivot through the floor. They basically admitted that ultimately boxing power comes from upper body.

Mike - my point about wing chun arrow walk is that you drive through the target in a linear motion. Your back foot is still planted to the floor.
In boxing your legs are more free. If you ask a boxer to throw a slow punch, hold that punch and then you grab it and push it, it will fold. In wing chun, once that punch is out, it is almost impossible to push it back. I have trained with wing chun instructors who can stand on one foot and repel the forward force of a bigger opponent.

Tom Yum - my point was that if you have that Olympic boxer against me and we are trading blows, he would undoubtedly cause me damage, but I would match that just out of size (rather than skill).

Mike - surface impacts are not superficial. The definition of a surface impact is a punch that hits, and as soon as it come into contact (with anything) pulls back. As I mentioned this includes a karate punch that can break bricks etc. It doesn't make it a rubbish punch
A wing chun punch spears through the target. It is like the whole Bruce Lee quote - comparing the karate (or boxers in this case) to an iron bar [WHAM!] and a wing chun punch to an iron ball with a chain on the end.

Medic06 - what do you mean by Fong's chi sao is all wrong? It looks good.
Kamon has choppy movements? I'm a bit confused (wouldn't be the first time)
I have never seen anyone outclass Master Chan in chi sao. You should come down to his next demo.

I do not doubt anyone's boxing experience here. Everyone so far has been querying my boxing experience - I have no reason to make stuff up. I could have just gone on here like Jubajii and posted a one line comment stating that boxing is rubbish. But I am an advocta eof boxing as I have said before.

What I am disputing is people's wing chun experience. People have pulled names out of a hat. One instructor that was mentioned I could barely find on google. Dan Inosanto was actually ranked under Master Chan in a Martial Arts Illustrated poll for top martial artists in the UK, and from what I understand his wing chun experience was fairly limited

Fong looks very good and if I am ever out that way I might go in and get my a*s kicked. But again, I am unsure as to your wing chun experience with him. No mention of length of time of training etc

I only say this as so far people have been attacking me, defending their art and that's fair enough. But it can't all be one way. I have posted my martial arts experience on here and I admit it isn't all there yet, but I'm young and still have a way to go. I would appreciate people posting their experience on here to clarify

Mike - I apologise for the limitation of posting vid clips. As I said I am rubbish at the whole techno thing, but I am trying to put together some realistic vids

[medic06]

I had a sarcastic moment. Note the the videos on the Kamon website shows students doing drills which are a bit choppier than what I'm used to seeing in WC.

Yes, Francis Fong is very, very good at what he does. Why would Dan Inosanto be ranked in the UK? He lives in Cali. . . plus the man is poetry in motion.

[Red Rum]

Fair point. I'm intrigued to see this guy in action.
Kamon varies from class to class. There are some traditionalists who keep their chi sao rigid (feels like you're trying to move a rock), and others who are more flowing. Kevin Chan is very smooth when he plays chi sao

I have no idea why Inosanto was in the poll, I just know that he was.

[Red Rum]

You mentioned something about holding out a boxing punch and trying to collapse the arm? Where do parlor tricks like that have any bearing on fighting? That's like the nonsense demonstration that used to be used in Judo circles and karate circles where a guy would get into a stance and a bunch of people would try to push him off balance or lift him up. No bearing on reality. Punch the guy dead in the mouth, and he'll move. If pushing on my arm in a fight would somohow hurt me, then fine. But as it stands, that tells a person less than nothing about the effectiveness of a punch. Again, if you doubt that, ask one of those guys in the video link I posted how they felt about the speed or power of Ray's punches..

As I keep reiterating, I am not doubting the effectiveness of a boxers punch.
I just find wing chun punches better. It is what I have found in my (limited) experience in boxing and wing chun. If I have to wait 24 years to get my boxing punches better than wing chun then I'll stick with the wing chun

The point I was making about holding out a punch was that if your punch cannot be pushed back, it must mean that the delivery of that punch will be improved as it's structure is better. It's like hitting someone with a bent iron bar (boxing) or a solid iron bar (wing chun)

In order to post a video, you can either cut and paste the web address (just highlight it in the browser bar, hit CTRL, "C" together; then, to paste it somewhere, hit CTRL, "V") or if you find it on YouTube, click the YouTube Icon in the upper right of your reply box and cut and paste the link in betwteen. If you haven't gotten it in a day or so, I'll post some wing chun videos and we can compare.

I don't have access to a computer at home and can't get YOUTUBE which is very frustrating. As I have said, vids aren't brilliant - I could easily fake a 'wing chun' vid showing me throw someone across a room with a punch and it would fool most. The best thing to do is come on over to a Kamon class when you can, and just ask one of the instructors.

I fear that your punching in wing chun has been taught too traditionally, and like ThaiBri you have had bad experiences with wing chun in your training.
I am only making assumptions here, as after 16 years of wing chun, you should be a smashing machine

One of our guys who had trained less than that sent a guy to hospital after a light punch that connected to the chest.

I have been to other martial art schools and I am hard pressed to find one better than Kamon. Wing chun is one of those arts that looks bad because when people fight they tend to use opponents who fall over after the slightest contact. I am attempting to make a video showing the brutal nature of wing chun and will post it when it gets filmed.

I understand your passion for boxing. I enjoy it too.
However my last comment on this subject....
I stood toe to toe with a pro boxer once. It took him eight hits to get me down
I stood toe to toe with Master Chan - it took him one hit to get me down
Go figure

[Thai Bri]

This has got to be one of my favourtie quotes of all time -

"The difference in energy means that I can hit walls with wing chun (how I train) whereas in boxing it hurts after about 30 punches to the wall.
Another example is that boxers can't break bricks with their hands like karate guys. It is different energy involved."

My God! Anyone who can punch a wall as hard as they can just once WITHOUT it hurting just cannot punch hard!

[Red Rum]

Are you joking? Have you not done any hand training? For the last ten years I have worked on wall bags, gradually getting harder and harder until I just hit the wall now.

And for the record, the wall cracks so I'm sure I'm hitting it hard enough

[Thai Bri]

Give me a call in 15 years. I will tie your shoe laces for you.

Seriously people. How the well can punching walls help you learn how to do anything other than fook your hands up? Do footballers kick walls? Do Cricketters hit walls with a bat? Etc. etc.

Hey! I'm all for getting used to hitting hard. My hands hurt after focus pad work (because I do hit rather hard, so I've been told!). And I also hit a maize bag. Now that IS good conditioning, and even that has to be built up to.

But your credibilty has nose dived with me. That is ridiculous. Hitting walls. Even the makiwara had some "give" in it, and that has damaged enough hands in it's day.

Whatever next.

[Red Rum]

ThaiBri, I don't think anyone on this forum has any credibility with you so I'm not that bothered. Punching hard, immovable objects toughen your hands and make them smashing machines.

It is the same as karate guys chopping big bits of wood. It might damage their hands but I wouldn't like to be struck by them.

Cricketeers don't hit walls with a bat, because you can't train a bat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Footballers don't kick a wall because they aren't always bothered about power (ie they are training accuracy rather than just how to boot it)

Punching bags are okay but it's having someone there to hold it...

[Bigbadade]

THis is all irelevant, to knock someone out just use some power and Hit him between the corner of the jaw and the chin. If you catch him on the button he'll go out. Simple as......... Surely you don't need to punch walls, break bricks and toughen the hand to do that?????

[medic06]

ThaiBri, I don't think anyone on this forum has any credibility with you so I'm not that bothered. Punching hard, immovable objects toughen your hands and make them smashing machines.

It is the same as karate guys chopping big bits of wood. It might damage their hands but I wouldn't like to be struck by them.

Cricketeers don't hit walls with a bat, because you can't train a bat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Footballers don't kick a wall because they aren't always bothered about power (ie they are training accuracy rather than just how to boot it)

Punching bags are okay but it's having someone there to hold it...

ThaiBri is right, you are damaging your hands hitting hard immovable objects. It's the minute fractures you cause in the bones in your hands which leads to the additional calcification and hardening of the bones. Unfortunately that kind of training also leads to severe arthritis and possible nerve damage. I hope you are training under the watchful of someone who knows what they are doing and you have plenty of dit jao (sp?).