1 Punch KO

[slayer31]

and if you ask me it appeared that the boxer didnt put full force into it... looked like a friggen sparring punch to me. but intersting show none the less. i loved the one where they measured the thai knee.

[Troll Virus]

It is, but in my opinion, what they were doing was much like the first UFC - style vs style rather than man vs man - which as I think we're all smart enough to know is neither realistic nor important.

LOL. Came across this thread, and was about to comment until I saw this.
Cheers!

[bigboywasim]

Have you guys noticed that TKD had the second best punch. A lot of things were off on the video. I am not hating on TKD put a pure TKD or your average TKD fighter can not punch with that much force compare to other arts. Some guys were a little bigger than other guys. They should have been the same size. This was another thing that was off.

Yeah I can understand a boxer having the strongest punch. If he didn't then what is the point of boxing? That is all a boxer does.

After that I think Karate, Kung Fu then TKD.

We all know it is not just about punches. A kick is more powerful than a punch. Imagine if cro crop did his kick on that dummy. I think it would be 1000+. I do not know how much force a strong knee or elbow has but I know you can ko someone with it. It would have been interesting if other moves were done.

[SamuraiGuy]

This is just a bunch of trash and its not science at all, its pure entertainment.

The size difference in practicioners has already been mentioned.

Since when is random boxer I've never heard of the representative of boxing as well. Shouldnt they have got the top puncher in the world, etc....

Why not get crocop or another K-1 level fighter in there to throw a round house kick. How can you compare a kick and a knee, or the running kick that the karate guy does, even though he loses.

Or the part where they deem the ninja the ultimate warrior because of his balance and "death punch"... well I've still never seen it happen in real life, or even on a video. And it looks to me like he really didnt hit that thing very hard, were they using the exact same measurement criteria for that as the boxers right cross or the muay thai knee?

And about the balance thing, doesnt matter how wel lyou can balance on one foot when a wrestler comes and scoops both out from under you.

Why wasnt the gun included as one of the weapons? Why wasnt Dan Insonato allowed to fight the TKD guy with his kali sticks to prove them superior?

WHY THE **** WAS RICKSON GRACIE AND GRAPPLING PART OF THE SHOW! You measure the force of a neck crank, who the **** cares, thats not the point, the point is no one has put Rickson in that position, or any other fight ending position and he's put everyone else (that he's fought) there, thats the point.

This was a mildly entertaining show, but ti shoulda been named fight bullshit or something..... whta a load of crap.

[Britt]

I love how the computer animation showed every strike knocking the guy's skeleton back out of his body about twelve feet.

"Holy crap! That guy just knocked that other guy's bones out!"

[Red Rum]

The other pont with striking is how many times could they do it...?
A kung fu guy (especially wing chun) can hit several times within a few seconds. The boxers often cannot.

Kung fu is often laughed at for many reasons but peopl don't understand that the energy delivered in many different kung fu punches hit through the target. Karate and boxers punches, whilst good, use 'surface impact'. This means that often the punches connect and then pull away, allowing them to be blocked or parried. With kung fu, the punches hit deep and through the target.

I do boxing and yes if you get caught with a hook (even a jab) you are out for the count. But I have been hit by kung fu practitioners where I felt like a car had hit me (and yes I have been hit by a car!!).

I'm not going to argue about which punch is the best, there are different situations for each punch, where the strike will shine best.

All I am saying is that these kind of programs do mislead people into thinking certain things are better than others.

[medic06]

He's been going on like that for the past few months in the CMA forum.

[Red Rum]

As someone who says they box, I cannot believe you posted this comment! Look at Mayweather, Ray Leonard, De La Hoya, Ali, Ray Robinson, and many, many others and tell me boxers can't punch several times in a second! When you talk about wing chun punches coming in rapid succession, you're right - they do. But they lack the serious knockdown power of a boxing punch or combination. I'm not saying that to flame on any style, it's just that I've been on the receiving end of some of the world's very best wing chum people, and I've been on the receiving end of some good boxers. In every case, the boxers' punches hurt more.

Can I just ask who the very best wing chun people were? Because our views may differ. There are some wing chun instructors who punch as though they were fighting 'handbags at dawn' style. Others who fight where one of their punches would easily knock someone out. I did a demo with Master Kevin Chan. He did a light punch to my solar plexus and it felt like all my organs had exploded.

Boxers punches are faster, but they rely on pulling back before hitting again (ie they work on leverage). Most boxers can't hit several hooks in a second, which is what I was talking about.
If you jab, cross and hook in combinations etc then yeah you can hit very fast, but the show was talking about the one 'super punch'

As a big guy, I can hit very hard using wing chun punches in a couple of seconds.

[medic06]

You're talking yourself into another hole my friend

[Red Rum]

Sure you can ask. Among them were Dan Inosanto, Yuri Nakamura, Paul Vunak, Francis Fong, Chad Stahelski, Ron Balicki, Randy Williams, and others. These are people who train wing chun for purely combative purposes, and they also happen to be people who generally understand the mechanics of boxing punches..

Okay, first off, I am quite familiar with Randy Williams. Whilst I enjoy his books, his realistic fighting techniques are nowhere near realistic. His pole form is extremely flowery and just doesn't do it for me. I thought (and I am probably wrong here) that Dan Insanto didn't do wing chun? I thought he was strictly JKD/Escrima? If I am honest I haven't heard of the other guys, but I think you live a long way from where I do so that is understandable

Boxers don't need to throw a dozen hooks in a row, because they have the ability to flow from straight to hooking to uppercuts in rapid (and I do mean rapid) succession. The punches come from all sorts of angles, and the delivery of one punch sets up the "pulling back" motion of another. So while you've cited the withdrawal of the fist as a negative, I would submit to you that any boxer that's been properly trained can use the very same thing to an advantage. While delivering one punch, the other withdraws. As it does so, the punching hip, leg, shoulder, etc. are extending while the other side are loading up to deliver power shots. It's fast, and the attack disguises the preparation for follow-up..

Woah woah... I do box dude!! My point was that in a fight, the pulling back of punches is enough for the person you're fighting to lunge at you, grab your arms, defend etc. In wing chun, you hit with power once and then follow up with powerrful centre line punches. The way we train punching in Kamon is a lot different to the nonsense you see in WT or other schools where there is a flurry of pathetic punches. In Kamon, each punch you do is enough to knock someone out with ease.

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to say that one os better than another - both have their place. It's just inaccurate to say that boxing doesn't teach a person how to punch in as rapid succession, or that wing chun punches are on par with boxing punches in terms of power..

I never said that!! I was talking about hook punches. In reality, jab/cross combinations are one of the fastest upper body moves going
I do believe that the type of power of wing chun punches and boxing punches are different. A hook is going for the blunt force trauma effect. Whereas a wing chun punch sinks deep into someone and doesn't stop. Most boxing punches hit and then pull back. A wing chun punch doesn't...

In combative terms, rapid successive punches in wing chun are not designed to deliver a knockout, but to get an opponent backing up, covering up, and off balance. Look at every account you can find, and you'll see the same thing, whether it was the fight between Bruce Lee and Wong Jak Man (Bruce punched the way you're talking about, and Wong Jak Man backpedaled - he didn't get knocked out) to the "fights" between William Cheung and his contemporaries. The jik chun choi drives people backward and keeps them from attacking while you close the distance. It doesn't often (though it can) produce knockouts..

Again, I don't really have any respect for Cheung who has pretty much destroyed wing chun from the inside. What you are talking about with Lee and Jak Man is wing chun sparring which is rubbish. You can't fight a wing chun guy using wing chun. Everytime this happens it ends up with silly 'handbags at dawn' type fighting. If you fight someone in a bar, you don't want to get into a sparring type environment. I want a short range position, enclosed environment. If you put your fists up, your attacker is going to know you're a fighter and try to counter you or put him on the defensive. If it gets into sparring range, I switch to boxing/MT.

Again, my statement was not that Wing Chun methods are bad, or that they can't produce power. Only that boxing punches can be equally rapid and successive, and generally develop more power based on their mechanics than Wing Chun methods. As a big guy, I'll bet you can indeed hit hard with a Wing Chun punch. I'll also bet that, if trained, you could hit even harder and very nearly just as fast with boxing tools.

I agree that boxing punches/combos are probably more rapid than wing chun in some instances. I have been easily outsparred by good boxers due to speed of their punches. However, if you imagine the wing chun punch is my whole bodyweight plus the stability of the floor coming forward, whereas in boxing a lot of the weight is the upper body. I know that you are involving 'the pivot' ie the ankle, but weight is still left behind. In wing chun you hit with everything coming forward and leave nothing behind

[medic06]

Francis Fong is probably one of the best Wing Chun teachers in the world, and he lives in Atlanta.

I'll second that!

[medic06]

And another note about Sifu Fong - he can hit! He's definitely no slouch, and his "martial education" extends far beyond Wing Chun.

I found out the hard way that he can grapple too

[Thai Bri]

Do me a favor. Post a couple of links of wing chun people hitting with full contact. I'll find some video links of boxers doing the same. We can compare power and speed that way. I'd be willing to bet that you'll see a completely irrelevant difference in speed, and a wide gap in power between the two.

"Why are we waiting? Why-o are we waiiting? Oh why are weeeee waiiiitiiiing? Come - on Redrum!"

I know people are sick of me talking WC down. But people believe without seeing any evidence. All I want to see is real evidence, rather than typical WC flawed theory. And all this from a guy who's instructor demos "Wing Chun" by kickboxing half the time!

[Red Rum]

My apologies. Very busy weekend. Clubbing, partying and just enjoying myself!!

Man there have been a lot of links....

First off - wing chun hits are not really blunt force trauma....
As I have said - most punches are 'surface impacts', designed to hit a target and pull back immediately. In this way, boxing punches are probably the best out there.
However.... a wing chun punch is a deeper hit. It sinks into the target you are hitting.
I know that in the end, a wing chun punch is still a punch and yes it is a blunt object coming in, but the idea isn't really to hit your opponent with blunt force trauma
You have to remember that the whole essence of wing chun is to eliminate problems of size (smaller person vs. bigger person for example). If a smaller person was to hit me with a boxing punch, it would hurt, sure, but it wouldn't hurt as much as my punch!!

The difference in energy means that I can hit walls with wing chun (how I train) whereas in boxing it hurts after about 30 punches to the wall.
Another example is that boxers can't break bricks with their hands like karate guys. It is different energy involved.

I understand what Mike Brewer said about full frontal pressure and that is one of the flaws I mentioned before (that traditional wing chun is too linear). If you train chain punching right (ie not like you are on a dancefloor), then you can hit controlled and forceful and destroy your opponent. You adapt your footwork quickly. Master Chan was trying to get us to use arrow walk footwork in a sparring situation and to be honest I didn't like it and just reverted back to my looser boxing footwork.

I disagree that wing chun combinations are slower than a boxers combo. I have seen vids of people who have very fast hands in wing chun. I think what you are trying to argue (and rightly so) is the balance between a person who can hit hard and fast with the right balance. Rather than someone who can move their hands fast. Even as a big guy I can move my hands a lot faster than some of the boxers I train with, but it doesn't automatically make me better than them

Mike, I didn't say that boxing was all upper body, I said a lot of it was. There is some power being transferred in the pivot, but ultimately the boxers stance is designed for flexibility and manouverability. They cannot afford to plant their feet flat and use stancework to add weight to the punch. That was my point.

Unfortunately, I am terrible using cameras and doing stuiff but I am trying to put a vid together of me demolishing one of my students (who is an ex kickboxer). I'm just a bit shy as I am a huge bloke and do not look good on film (vanity triumphs).
In the meantime have a look through our media gallery http://www.kamonwingchun.com/Gallery.aspx
There you will see Master Chan training boxing and Muay Thai as well as doing some trapping drills. Even he has said that he wouldn't really hit with a boxing punch and prefers wing chun punching. If you think his boxing is rubbish then I will concede.

Thai Bri - I don't know why you think that the montage vid was using kickboxing. It was pure wing chun!!! The other vids demo Master Chan training in boxing, kickboxing, BJJ etc. But I know what you mean by a good wing chun vid. I try to get to classes rather than rely on vids though. Seeing something face to face is a lot different to watching a vid that has been stooged. (I could do a vid with people using blood pellets who are trained to fall over and most wouldn't know the difference)

Ironically, we do actually have a DVD for sale that covers wing chun punching (it's on our website). Personally I didn't really like the vid as it was too class orientated (against pads etc) and didn't really show what it can do in a real environment.


As for Fong – I haven’t heard of him but I’ll take your word for it. I think it’s bold to say someone is the best in the world at something. Have you been to every country in the world?

[medic06]

Link to Sifu Fong's site

http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=42

You would be hard pressed to find a better martial artist (and better human being) anywhere.