Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[Arms_Of_Thor]

There is a to much theory here go spar and fight and see for your own knowledge seen? You can talk and think shit over in yourhead but its all shit on the street or ring. Keep training and May the good lord protect you mi bredren.

[Nothingness]

A very common naiveness: this system is better than that.
None system is better than the other; it is necessary for each indivudual person to become cultivated in his own method of training.

I like your Sun Tzu's quote. I think this is a good application:

- Boxing's training focuses on the practicality for its intended match. However, protection gears and rules are applied to avoid serious injuries. Hence, its own reinforcement has also become its weaknesses.
- Oriental martial arts (using a generalize terminology), although based on centuries of real combat experiences, has become too formalized in its training. Although the formalized moves train certain desired reflex behaviors, their guileless advocates might never understand the real meaning of the movement and it ends up as a dance. Hence, its own reinforcement has also become its weaknesses.

Of course we have our own believes, that's why we are training in different systems. Unless you are burdened to be the world best and are ready to face any challenges, it is pointless to say which system is the best. Even you can be the best, it is only temporary until someone better (from a different system) beats you.

So, just cheer up and enjoy your training.

[SilverWolf33]

Originally posted by TheSod_88
Oriental arts r a damn joke!

We have an idiot. Boxing alone is worthless! You have to be able to strike with every part of your body, fruitcake! You might as well be fighting with your penis.

[Tom Yum]

Good example of the crossover from Muay Thai into pro-boxing. Lucia Rijker has done the same in Women's Boxing.

[Nothingness]

Khaosay Galaxy ....

[Tom Yum]

Nice.

The purpose of this post was to show the relative differences in boxing and muay thai and their boxing component - I think one of the opinions was that a boxer could best a muay thai fighter if each were to use their own rules.

The overwhelming consensus was that boxers spend 100% of their time working on hands, so naturally they are better with their hands wheras muay thai fighters can develop pretty good boxing skills, but also rely alot on kicks, elbows and knees to deliver their KOs.

With no preparation in Thai rules fighting, the MT fighter wins. In a boxing rules match, the thai boxer would be comfortable enough with boxing but not have the same time investment and training as the boxer and would loose. In the past 10 years, muay thai fighters have dabbled in boxing. Historically, some of the top 10 pro western boxers in the light weight, feather weight and bantam weight divisions have been from Thailand.

Check out the thread posted in the archives called "San Shou vs. Boxing" It was an exhbition match of San Shou fighters vs. American boxers.

[Nothingness]

Why brags on systems?

Pardon my intrusion, but let me give a fresh perspective:

No systems (boxing, asian martial arts, etc.) will guarantee you to be the best fighter.

The systems only provide you with their accumulate experiences on the training and fighting methods.

Some people grasp them well, some don't.

How do you compare an apple with an orange?

One way to do it is from the content of their vitamin C

So, which one has more vitamin C? Apple or orange?

It all depends on each individual fruit.

Even if (lets say) apples have more vitamin C in average, some oranges (lets say) can have more vitamin C than some apples.

You can't deviate the statistics.

Studying how to fight is studying your own body. You learn about your own body and learn about its strenghts and weaknesses.

Again, systems don't matter. When you are good, you are good. As long as you get the job done.

Just train harder and smarter. One minute you spend here speculating is one minute you are NOT spending for your training.

Good luck.

[dave_UK_MT]

Originally posted by Arms_Of_Thor
Its not to difficult to learn how to throw a few proper kicks. If you have a good round house, & steep kick I think you have a chance against a decent MT boxer.

Sorry but it IS difficult. The basic principle is easy but getting correct form and control over your kicks takes a lot of time and practice.

Just to add.
I sparred with a former British heavyweight thai boxer and 2001 UK K1 competitor last week; his boxing skills were excellent and when we just went hands only he very much had the upperhand, in fact he would've battered me silly if it'd been a real fight. It was mainly in the close quarters situations where he just worked the body, I was having to hold back my knee/clinch. However, when thai boxing we were at a much similar level and I was holding my own (bear in mind he's got 10 years experience on me) and I was catching him with good high and mid point kicks that were stifling his excellent body shots (thank god, they fking hurt)..

Anyway, point is 'Boxing only' the boxer will win, introduce legs/elbows/knees and the Thai Boxer will win. FULL STOP.

Thats assuming both fighters are equally matched.

[Arms_Of_Thor]

Its not to difficult to learn how to throw a few proper kicks. If you have a good round house, & steep kick I think you have a chance against a decent MT boxer.

[Tom Yum]

Ad_infinitum, you're for real and you said it like it is.

Boxing is a regular part of training in muay thai. MT is a little more upright to avoid knees, but everything above the legs (excluding elbows and clinching) is taken from western boxing.

Good post.

[ad_infinitum]

this thread started as a lot more generic question about a boxing Asian MA comparison and evolved in a Boxing Vs Thai thing.
I won't stray from this as it seems to be the focal point of the discussion.

Personally I've trained as a kickboxer (fighting with low kicks rules for ~2yrs) with enough fighting experience in regionals and such (no knees/elbows, no clinch experience other than sporadically in training bouts only) but I believe I have a good grasp of the muai thai concepts be it from a trained spectator aspect.
Also I've boxed regularly for about 3 yrs. (I weigh in at 69kg 6ft just in case you need to setme up for a friendly bout, I hope not all arguments in this forum come to that ??)
to the point:
there is such a thing as an inverse simplicity/proficiency ratio...
meaning that the average to good boxer is in far better command of his tecniques than the average to good muai thai fighter. I will not consider exceptional fighters from either discipline.

the comparison is in my opinion a little biased against boxing because it doesn't take into account the many things thai has borrowed from boxing tecnique. Who doesn't remember some years back, thai boxers with a ridiculus upper body fighting stance (hands open on either side of the head, too extended by far) lending no passive defenses to the head.
Compare this with the "traditional" boxing stances adopted by most modern (as in last decade) thai fighters.
So boxing is an essential part of everyday training for the thai boxer.

boxing training on the other hand involves no kicking whatsoever!

So the question is really: what rules??
a boxer getting into a fight with thai rules without having had some sort of coaching will have no luck at all. He will not even be able to recognize attacks originating below the waist as a threat source. Even though boxers have very trained legs, conditioning is a whole different proposition. Even a medium impact low kick will leave a boxer limping, and deny him the mobility he needs to avoid ensuing attacks. So he would have to be both wary of the legs and lucky to close the distance without getting hit with a damaging kick, and then stay inside and do some damage of his own with his superior boxing skills.
Now if a thai fighter was to get into a boxing contest with a good boxer or fight with boxing rules I'd give the boxer a 80/20 chance of winning at this time. (the balance will change over time but mainly because of the thai fighters incorporating more and more western boxing tecniques in their training)

Now guys don't go telling me that the comparison should be made on the more complete art's terms or some such. (because the thread more and more resembles one with a subject of "can boxers make it in muai thai?"). Both sports are artificial forms of confrontation with an arbitrary set of rules (I mean why not biting eye-gouging, joint dislocations and such).

to wrap it up, it would be a lot more productive to focus on what thai fighter would have to do to further improve his boxing skills?
what should a boxer do to expand his fighting arsenal, or to become good in muai thai (if he cares to make that transition, he already has made very good progress in the part of muai thai that involves boxing)

Bye for now

[mr. bond]

boxers train with a huge amount of intensity and repetition, which results in a powerful guy who's basically "hard as a coffin nail", to quote Snatch. their punches are probably the best in the MA world, and keeping it simple can sometimes be an advantage.

there's huge variances in asian MA, but i think you'll find two basic things for any of them as compared to boxing/MT/BJJ:
1) 99.9% of schools will be less intense in their physical training and drilling.
2) you'll cover a greater range of situations.

[Great Sage]

Smash,

If you were half the warrior you claim to be, you wouldn't be backing down... Truthfully, you know NOTHING about Muay Thai to be making any assumptions. REAL opinions are based on extensive research or opinion, not shallow remarks that have no justification... Perhaps, a boxer who has defeated many Muay Thai boxers may lend credibility, but you?... You're just a whiner...

[terry]

Originally posted by smash
First of all, the views I present in the thread are mine and mine alone. If somebody agrees, fine, if not, even better. It should not be taken personally, Terry. It is as if it's skin off your back. I don't agree with most of the arguments for MT but I can live with that. Somebody said in the thread , to fully know the outcome is to have a showdown between boxers vs. MT fighters.

I don't think that most boxers and MT people are at odds. And few are so stupid as to play the other guy's game when they know what they're walking into. No, what I proposed is that you educate yourself by trying it yourself against an evenly matched opponent. Win or loose, you'll be less ignorant--and quite possibly a nicer guy--for the experience.

Well, since you are in CA, why not descend to the boxing gyms in the Latino quarters.

I'm working with Hearn's old trainer right now. Awesome dude. Oh, by the way, he respects Muay Thai. And the favorite boxer you mentioned in the other thread, Salvadore Sanchez? He used to train MT in Ajarn Chai's backyard. He's an awesome guy too. FYI -- Ajarn Chai has also been sought out by several pro boxing champs for some dirty boxing ring tricks like elbows.

Show the guys there your beef, show them why MT is king, belittle them and their boxing skills, attack their machismo ( so as to assure a couple of fights).

Sir, please don't project the chip you have on your shoulder onto other people. I've never said anything derogatory about boxing. Quite the contrary, I have a great respect for boxing and recommend training in it--especially if you're also into Muay Thai. I know I do. What I do say to you is that you shouldn't dismiss or underestimate Muay Thai.

Better yet, you can go to Oscar de la Hoya's camp and make the same proposal, at least he and his entourage knows how to speak English. If still not contented, go to Mosely's camp and challenge not Mosely, but his select sparring partners. Turn on the charm, beg if you will, demand if you must! After all you are the MAN! Ask these boxers if they agree with me or not. Either way, MISTER Terry I don't give a damn!

Hmmm...I smell a troll. How old did you say you are? Let me guess: 11? 10? Let's hope you fight better than you write.

Terry

[Tom Yum]

Smash, I don't think Terry belittled boxing at all. I think he simply suggested that in a boxing v. muay thai match, the thaiboxer would have the upperhand. Alot of thaiboxers cross train in boxing too; how many boxers cross train in thaiboxing (some; I saw a prof. fight w a Cubano who did well-he wore his MT shorts with school name in his match)

Smash it is impossible to know what tone of voice a person is using on the net. I don't think he was ragging on your boxing abilitiy; instead he suggests that you enter a match against a thaiboxer with the equivalent experience as you have in boxing. This shouldn't be blown out of proportion.

Yes, latino boxers are very serious about their training, which is why they are kings in the ring (i.e. De lahoya). Apparently you are serious about boxing too and nobody here is going to challenge that. Relax man. This isn't personal.

Take up the challenge (maybe a 5 round, 3 min exhibition match-thai rules) against a thaiboxer in your weight class/experience level. If you level the guy, tell us how you did it.