Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[IPON]

Hwa Rang soldiers were the origianl (royal) guard in korea (I think around the Tang dynasty) and developed the devestating kicks which Korea arts are known (its very general but that it iin a nut shell) Hwa Rang do was created in the middle of the last century around the same time as yu kwon sool (now Hapkido). I have never studied it I do know a few that have and it is a solid style. As always instructors may vary.

I think wrist locks, single or double hand, like any type of lock definately have there place in the arsenal...first move rarely, but you have second third fourth..etc move. The goal is not lock per se but it may be useful. I am a bouncer and I have used locks in personal fights and well as working...so yes I can say they work and help get people to the ground fast. any locks are still based on the use of kinetic energy..you are not standing in one place, you are taking the oponent off balance before the lock is applied.

What I do agree with is that people have a lot of misconceptions about locking and its effectiveness .... nothing is magic, but that doesn't mean its useless (generally speaking - for the individual maybe). there are a lot of factors swith standup locks persons Size, strenght, weather (is it raining) etc.

I think people keep confusing practical and useless and this is were the discussions break down.

Ryan I will be honest, if you are fighting someone that can't respoond to the pain of an appropriate placed lock....unless you have a gun it won't matter what you do, if they are that high....drunk that dream compared to somone that turn into the hulk after they are coked up.

The techniques have their place is a matter of knowing when to use them. Do I think someone can lock, throw or shoot on me...I can never say never but it is extremely unlikely in a real situation.

I have been in numerous fights/situations and I do take SD very seriously. And I am definaltely not blinded an instructor or myth.

So my question is it seems that you feel every MA does not have application, then what does, only MT and BJJ. MT maybe but if you agrue for BJJ and you think in "real fighting" its not smart to use a lock but instead you should take somone to he ground ........ wake up!! ( I know you didn't state that but if you argue for BJJ that is the general philosophy)

A seasoned street boxer is the most dangerous and common fighter on teh street (at least in the inner city areas) on the barring weapons of course. There are alot of people that don't mind taking a few hits (no matter how strong) to get inside and knock you out. Yo vivo en washington heights y tu sabes muchachos locos aqui.

So I am not saying this as a challenge or disrespect, I am just trying to understand your rationale that if no traditional or modern art is good what is??

Ultimately we can agree to disagree...what works for one may not work for another

[grubbogoppoly]

Thank you ipon. . .That is essentially what I have been trying to get across to them this whole time. You just put it in much better words. .
Ps. It was the silla kingdom. Also I just checked your profile. You have studied many arts. How long did you stick with each?

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by grubbogoppoly
"ps - one jab, when not in combination, does work. If you know how to jab"
We can say that about anything then. You can't say it about one thing and not another.

You seem to think (and, indeed, have actually said) that every technique can work. It can't.

As for wrist locks? They sometimes work on the guy who is putting up a token resistance. The guy who doesn't want to fight, but doesn't want to lose face either.

I know you're all happy because you think you've found a friend. But you're still a WANKER!

[grubbogoppoly]

Let me restate that, any technique that comes from an ESTABLISHED art can work. It is not the technique that fails it is the person that fails to execute. You go on and know what you know. I will know what I know. But I am done with this conversation. It is pointless. All you are doing at this point is trying to justify your "art" whatever it may be by saying that what I do is inferior. It is a childish and pointless game.

[ryanhall]

So my question is it seems that you feel every MA does not have application, then what does, only MT and BJJ. MT maybe but if you agrue for BJJ and you think in "real fighting" its not smart to use a lock but instead you should take somone to he ground ........ wake up!! ( I know you didn't state that but if you argue for BJJ that is the general philosophy)

Well, I don't recall saying that any martial art was the answer to personal protection. Nor did I say that nothing worked. I DID say that practicing things that you won't use is not productive.

Another thing I did NOT say was that going to the ground was a viable plan. What the f%ck is wrong with most of you people who automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with a lot of traditional martial arts mumbo jumbo is a MMA junkie who wants to single leg and armbar everyone they come across? I gave a list of reasons why standing joint locks are not advisable (read not impossible). Are they somehow incorrect? Dealing with rowdy drunks or people with too much mouth for their own good when you have backup and a knowledge of your environment (read being a bouncer) is quite a bit different than defending yourself from a criminal attack on your person. In addition, bouncers from very rough clubs will rarely if ever advise the use of such control techniques as wrist locks.

Two very famous British bouncers. The latter is a one time British full-contact karate champion. Both are highly ranked in traditional martial arts, yet advocate more progressive methods.

https://www.geoffthompson.com

https://www.peterconsterdine.com

In regards to wrist locks/pain compliance:
The feeling of pain is not an issue if you hit someone solidly in the throat, apply a rear naked choke, gouge someone's eye in the process of a barrage of strikes, or hit repeatedly to the head area with forward drive. I completely respect the fact that meth, coke, etc. can make someone incredibly strong/resistant to pain. However, your response should be offensive and violent, not twisty wristy.

The fact of the matter is that techniques are incidental and the psychological/emotional delivery system is what matters. No two situations are the same, so there is no set move or combo that you need to practice.

A seasoned street boxer is the most dangerous and common fighter on teh street (at least in the inner city areas) on the barring weapons of course. There are alot of people that don't mind taking a few hits (no matter how strong) to get inside and knock you out. Yo vivo en washington heights y tu sabes muchachos locos aqui.

By the way, I sure hope that anyone who takes a few solid pre-emptive hits to the head/neck areas won't be in much of a position to knock me out. I don't discount it, but I do try to hit hard enough that my shots don't tickle. Add that to the fact that I don't hit so much as hit and then keep position while going ballistic on the other guy's face, and I'll be close enough that it would be difficult to land a power shot to my head.

So I am not saying this as a challenge or disrespect, I am just trying to understand your rationale that if no traditional or modern art is good what is??

I know you're not. I don't command respect, anyway, just courtesy. However, I have never stated that 'no modern or traditional art is good.' I have stated that high kicking, hip punching, wrist locking, pressure pointing, and yellow bambooing are all pretty poor ways of fighting when it counts. I find value in sports such as wrestling, Judo, boxing, Thai, BJJ, etc. I like some Wing Tsun/Chun (when done properly). Filipino martial arts ca be good as well. Kyokushin Karate has some good points to it. I don't like Hapkido at all, but other people who know what they are talking about do (but not the wrist locking aspects).

Nothing is unbeatable, and nothing is really the best. However, the only things that are really the best aren't martial art at all. Hitting hard, first, non-telegraphically, and repeatedly is better than being the best boxer in the world who allows the other guy to get in the first good lick. Real world fighting is as much mindset as anything else. Does any traditional art or sport fighting system teach pre-contact awareness? The fence (as seen in use by many RBSD instructors--has worked for me on a number of occasions)? Everybody always says 'we do that too,' but the fact of the matter is that they don't.

Despite what some grossly misinformed people have recently stated on this site, size and strength do matter. So does speed, experience, 'toughness' (which is pretty intangible, as you have it or you don't), meanness, and possibly most importantly, surprise. So I support hitting the gym, training hard, and learning how to be the sneakiest bastard that you can be.

I am definaltely not blinded an instructor or myth.

I don't remember suggesting that you are blinded by anything (not so sure about that other guy, though). Your posts are usually intelligent and have some substance to them.

Ultimately we can agree to disagree...what works for one may not work for another

I'm not here to convert anybody, and I will agree to disagree if it comes to that. However, I choose to use the things that work the most often against the most people. That means that wrist locks and fancy traditional martial arts 'increasing human capacity' nonsense does not have a place here. If you want to increase your capacty, either learn to fight for real, or take gymnasitcs--you'll get a lot better at aerial flips and kicks than martial arts could ever make you.

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
grubb - Just consider the possibility that you might be in a theoretical fantasy world as regards what works in a real fight.

Grubb. This is where I came in. You kicked off, and now want to claim the mature high ground. It works about as well as Hwa Rang Do. Zero.

[grubbogoppoly]

I told you I am done with this conversation. So stop directing these posts towards me. If you do agree to disagree when needed then do it. I have been trying to tell you that for the past several posts. As to thai. Well, you keep on proving what little level of intellegence you have. I haven't seen one single real point in any of your posts.
I could respond to your post ryan. But as I said. I have been finished with this conversation for a while.

[Tom Yum]

Hwa Rang Do

Locks can and do work. Only when the situation calls for it.

For example if some guy starts business with you buy pointing at you and jamming his finger towards you, I can't think of a better occasion to pull a double handed wrist lock in any direction.

If someone pushes you, you can allways pull them and use their off balance time to get a lock.

Other scenarios too. Bottom line, locks are a good prelude to a fight. The lock is not meant to make the aggressor cry uncle; rather snap the wrist, elbow, shoulder.

Locks will not work after or during the time punches are thrown unless you get into some kind of clinch. General rule being that the closer the lock site is to the body, the easier it is to lock up; elbow is easier than wrist, shoulder is easier than elbow and neck is the easiest.

Hwarang do is very similar to Hapkido and a little similar to Tukong; I hold a black brown in HKD and studied Tukong for a year so I am a little familiar with the Korean arts. I think its a good and effective style. I don't think its superior to any other style - your talent and attributes as a fighter boil down to the quality of instruction that you get and your persistance.

If you've only sparred light contact or with Hwarang fighters only, you're missing out on alot.

[Thai Bri]

Grubb - I think you know what I think.

[Tom Yum]

Thai you've got 666 posts man. Too bad Kevin Green, the sorry teen newborn-Christian troll isn't around to see this.

[IPON]

Ryan I don't think you are a MMA junkie I was trying to understand your position, I stated that MT and BJJ as examples and you did list reasons and stated that locks are useless techniques...not just that they were impracticle. For the most part we are on the same page. I do think alot of techniques have there place in the right situation locks included. Again the right situation an arm bar or wrist can definately humble someone and prevent a situation from escalating. I actually go out of my way to prevent fights (which is amazing for my temperment)....and honestly (this may sound silly) as a bouncer or personally) I don't assume I have help from the others. I am not trying to sound like king badass..basically I don't say what I can't backup. and I have been insituations where other bouncers arn't there or would freeze up. Reality to me is that ultimately in life I will always be the only person responsible for my personal safety.


I agree 100% interms of conditionoing stregth and most importatntly attititude of a fighter......without that the eventhe best technique can only be so good. Incidently, that is the main reason street fighter win against MA. I also agree david and goliath was good story...but a story, Reality the score would be Goliath 1 David 0.

To me respect=courtesy and that is generally the focus of my posts. I don't jump on bandwagons and argue...I am interested in learning from different perspectives. BTW thanks for the links interesting you posted goeff thompson before but 2nd one is new to me.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your side.


BTW: regarding gyms...I don't know about the BX but if you work in manhattan I like kingsway boxing on 28th st and heard great things about church street boxing from other boxers (same buliding as machado BJJ and Vee Arnis Jitsu.) This link lists alot of gyms in the boroughs

http://www.usaboxingmetro.com/

http://www.boxinghelp.com/new_york.html

http://www.nyboxinggym.com/index2.html

[Tom Yum]

Boxing's contribution to K-1, MMA

Boxing's contribution to K-1 will be exciting. Tyson and Shannon Briggs are two names that will rock and shock the kickboxing world.

Boxers are allready comfortable on their feet and can be more selective about when they would throw kicks, rather than relying on kicks as a primary weapon. Plus they have superior mobility and can work pressure without having to compromise their balance.

Learning how to kick and knee/control the clinch will be mere details for powerfull pro boxers.

In a boxing vs. K-1 type event it could go either way; but with boxers learning K-1 fighting, they will adapt well and earn victories.

[ryanhall]

Ipon,
Thanks a lot for the help with suggesting some gyms. I'll check a couple of them out.

Thanks for explaining your point. I respect your experiences and I do not doubt you. I have never really been able to make a wrist or other lock work on anyone other than a few drunk buddies and one moron who decided to try one of those hand crushes to impress a friend--in retrospect, I should have hit him, as he had it coming--so I shy away from them. There's no doubt that they can work, but I find their application to be very limited as a civilian who does not work a door.

Reality to me is that ultimately in life I will always be the only person responsible for my personal safety.

Couldn't agree more.

[NuffSpeed]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
the hunt approached, snarling dogs and all. The fox said "Actually I know about 50 ways I could escape from these. I could run to that stream, run up stream and then cross over, they will never find my scent. I could make my way through that hedge, they are to big to follow......" And he went on and on.

The cat ran up the tree and watched the dogs rip the fox to pieces.

I just had to point out, that the hunters following the dogs could shoot the trapped cat. He only prolonged his death.

[Thai Bri]

Nope. Fox Hunters don't carry guns over here.

So poo off!