Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[ryanhall]

Smash,
Though you seem to possess a good knowledge of boxing, your Muay Thai IQ is very low.

As for the power generated by the elbow in MT, overrated. Knocking out teeth, against another MT fighter perhaps, but against a skilled boxer-ZIPP.

Can you explain to me how it is so overrated? I have had much success with it in the past. It wouldn't be illegal in boxing if it didn't work. More importantly, I would like to know what secret that my boxing gym is missing. You know, the one that makes me invulnerable to anything but punching. What does a boxer possess that nobody else does that keeps his teeth in his mouth?

When a boxer meets an MT fighter, the boxer can immediately "load up", because he lacks basic boxing defenses.

A boxer lacks bais Muay Thai defenses. I'd like to note that there are a number of Thai fighters that have become successful and even champion Western boxers. No boxer has ever fought successfully in Thailand, and nor will one. I'm not lying to you. It's easy to close and clinch on a boxer if you're man enough to risk taking a hit. This happens all the time when a good boxer fights a nobody. The poor fighter closes to stop the barrage, and it works. It spoils the fight, as the better guy can't show his stuff. As a boxing fan, I'm sure you can't deny this.

The purpose of all the types of strikes in MT seems to be to SCORE POINTS

What's that thing that the judges have in boxing? Oh, yeah, a score card. But fights are never determined by those.

Momentarily standing on 1 foot is a disasttous mistake against a boxer. The MT fighter has the habit of keeping his feet close together also.

Like a great many people, you totally underrate the savvy of fighter of another system/style/sport. It's the friggin ring. There's time to prepare to deal with the other guy. You mention a few successful boxers and the way that they read their opponents for weaknesses. Do you think that this is exclusive to boxing? This happens to a lot of people when they engage in hypotheticals. How about this on: a boxer or Thai fighter with a good defense who uses knees and elbows in addition to punching. He'll put a punches only boxer in the hospital. Have you ever been kneed in the gut? It's a hell of a lot more painful than any shovel hook your opponent could throw.

winning and losing fights by decision

A decision based on points. Wait, you said that boxing wasn't based on points...

KNEES: The Mt fighter when he knees, should have the target in front of him, the boxer constantly moves, "working the angles".

I'd love to see a boxer (or anybody) try to 'work the angles' after someone gets ahold of him. The clinch is highly regarded for a reason: if you have the other guy, he's in a lot of trouble. Don't believe it? Go down to a Thai or San Shou gym and see for yourself.

Boxers don't take steps toward their opponent, but tend to slide forward from point A to B, MT fighters will be caught in mid-step and can easily be tagged by a combination.

We (boxers) do slide step rather than walk, and if someone is caught mid-step they're in trouble. Still, that doesn't mean that the opponent will be a witless wanker with no idea of what he's doing.

[dave_UK_MT]

Originally posted by smash
The purpose of all the types of strikes in MT seems to be to SCORE POINTS! Kicks count more than punches as a result the propensity to kick than punch.

I assure you that the primary intention of any MT fighter is to kill his opponent, points don't really cross your mind.

The MT fighter has the habit of keeping his feet close together also.

Only if your doing it wrong, we are taught to keep a fighting stance at all times.

Their are subtle things in boxing not always noticeable to the ordinary fan. .

Same goes for MT, thats what its all about, to be good at MT you need to master all its subtleties.

Anyway boxing is wicked, I love it, especially watching the likes of de la hoya and Barrera, magic stuff.

But don't dis MT, its no fairies contact sport. Its as technical (maybe more so) and as brutal as boxing but just doesn't have the cultural acceptance in the western world.

It would be very interesting to see a full rules MT vs Boxing fight though, with equally skilled opponents. My money'd be on the MT guy every time.

[Bri Thai]

"The purpose of all the types of strikes in MT seems to be to SCORE POINTS!"

Unlike Western Boxing............

[smash]

The purpose of all the types of strikes in MT seems to be to SCORE POINTS! Kicks count more than punches as a result the propensity to kick than punch. After the bouts, they simply tally the scoresheets and that'ts it. As for the power generated by the elbow in MT, overrated. Knocking out teeth, against another MT fighter perhaps, but against a skilled boxer-ZIPP.
When a boxer meets an MT fighter, the boxer can immediately "load up", because he lacks basic boxing defenses.
The MT fighter has just 1 kick in a fight and that's it. But the boxer comes to him not in front but at an angle. Momentarily standing on 1 foot is a disasttous mistake against a boxer. The MT fighter has the habit of keeping his feet close together also.
Their are subtle things in boxing not always noticeable to the ordinary fan. Kevin Kelly-Marco Antonio Barrera. As Kelly circles around the ring, Barrera throws left hooks to the body, Kelly is keeping his arms to his side as he moves, yet Barrera finds a small window of opportunity, as Kelly moves, his elbow moves slightly forward in conjunction with his steps. To gain position and throw a punch on a small movimg target is very difficult. Medina-Marquez. Medina is known as a survivor, winning and losing fights by decision and he throws alot of punches though not hard tends to keep the opponent at bay and he moves alot. Yet the result of the fight was KO. An Mt fighter would not last a round against guys like Barrera, Marquez, Tyson, Mosely, etc.
KNEES: The Mt fighter when he knees, should have the target in front of him, the boxer constantly moves, "working the angles".
Boxers don't take steps toward their opponent, but tend to slide forward from point A to B, MT fighters will be caught in mid-step and can easily be tagged by a combination. More later,

[da_mill]

Just wanting to add - in a fighting, match ring style situation, elbows are more devastating because the elbow is not covered by a glove... nuff said.

[ryanhall]

The clinches again offer a lot of targets for the boxer

It offers a lot of targets for a MT fighter too. Don't fool yourself--Thai is a very solid standup art, and boxing can be beaten. This is coming from a boxer.

Elbows as thrown by MT fighters are don't cause the same cuts as punches in boxing does

Who cares about the cut when your opponent's mouth doesn't have any teeth left in it? Elbows generally hit harder than punches, and they have a harder striking surface than a glove or hand.

Elbows are illegal in boxing but there are occasions where the use of the elbow is used with finesse and inflicting damage without the ref ever noticing. Throwing a hook and "missing" only to catch the opponent with the elbow in te follow through 'Nuff said!

Naturally, a subtle elbow thrown by someone that doesn't train it for a living would do more damage than a power shot thrown by someone who does. That's like saying that a WuShu guy will hit like a boxer because they both punch. Weren't you just telling us how elbows weren't worthwhile?

[smash]

Boxing is superior to any form of Oriental MA which involves striking. I've watched my fill of MT fights and with the various weapons they use, elbows, knees and kicks find very few knockdowns and vicious cuts and KO's. MT fighters have no footwork and tend to stand in front of each other. Stiff and straight up and very open to just about all a boxer's punches. Most knockdowns in MT are from a short right counter to a kick and it is only armpunching. The clinches again offer a lot of targets for the boxer. MT fighters don't crouch and leave their sides wide open to body shots. they don't slip punches and as a result would absorb the full weight of a boxer's punch. Kicking can easily be neutralized by lateral movement, and the MT fighter NEEDS to set in order to kick. Sad to say the kickboxer will be set up by the very kicks he relies so much. The MT fighter has a tendency to approach his opponent trying to hold unto the back of the neck, in so doing leaves himself so open. Grasping the opponent at the waist and throwing knees, the blows have no leverage.The moment the MT fighter starts to knee, just walking forward would easily put the MT fighter in an off-balanced position. Grasping the back of the neck is even worse. Wide open for body shots!
Also the boxer's trick of spinning the opponent is devastating to a fighter who is poor in footwork. Elbows as thrown by MT fighters are don't cause the same cuts as punches in boxing does. the technique of turning the punch at the moment of contact causes this. Elbows are illegal in boxing but there are occasions where the use of the elbow is used with finesse and inflicting damage without the ref ever noticing. (Holyfield -Holmes) Throwing a hook and "missing" only to catch the opponent with the elbow in te follow through 'Nuff said!

[swan104]

Re: Filipino boxing

Originally posted by BlackMaskX
Sorry for changing the subject a little bit, but has anyone done much Filipino boxing (I think it's called "pankuantuan" or something like that)? Supposedly it mixes open and closed-hand techniques with kicks and bites. Is this accurate, and how does Filipino boxing hold up to Western boxing for use on the street?

Also, has anyone tried to mix Western boxing with tai chi, or incorporate kali training into Western boxing? Some people have told me that mixing boxing and tai chi has given them an edge because it has improved their body mechanics, and that doing kali weapons drills will improve hand speed and reaction time.

In JKD, Filipino Boxing (Panantukan) is integrated into Western boxing because the arts complement each other. I've only done the basics (eg drilled destroying the jab or hook with an elbow), but they contain linb destructions that originate from the knife. Kali/escrima is a empty hand art as well as a weapons based art so it can be incorporated into your training.

I can't see any reason why Tai Chi can't be incorporated with Western boxing, but I'm sure those that have crossed trained in the 2 are in a better position to answer that. I did Tai Chi for about 2 months whilst I was training in JKD. I found the forms to be a bit boring (personal opinion here), but the pushing hands was interesting for developing tactile awareness.

[Tom Yum]

I've heard the same thing, but haven't practiced them. It never hurts to cross train. Tai chi is good for developing balance, static strength and deep breathing.

[BlackMaskX]

Filipino boxing

Sorry for changing the subject a little bit, but has anyone done much Filipino boxing (I think it's called "pankuantuan" or something like that)? Supposedly it mixes open and closed-hand techniques with kicks and bites. Is this accurate, and how does Filipino boxing hold up to Western boxing for use on the street?

Also, has anyone tried to mix Western boxing with tai chi, or incorporate kali training into Western boxing? Some people have told me that mixing boxing and tai chi has given them an edge because it has improved their body mechanics, and that doing kali weapons drills will improve hand speed and reaction time.

[ryanhall]

Ryan, hear about the guy they call black Bruce Lee (Manson Gibson?). He's an American guy who fights in Thailand who is very unorthodox. He kos thai fighters with spinning back kicks, axe kicks and other fancy high kicks. Very fascinating fighter. Probably kicks as well as Superfoot.

Never heard of him. Sounds interesting though. You'd have to be one hell of a kicker to be able to pull that stuff off.

[Tom Yum]

Yep. The thai clinch is realatively easy to pull off against boxers. Once you start going head to head, literally, they don't expect it. The clinch works best against brawler type boxers, who lack good defense. They get in close to slug it out and you can slip right in. The medicine ball can prep you for a shovel hook, hook or straight to the body, but I don't think its enough to prepare for a knee. As they say, 10% of MT fighters die in the ring due to internal damage from kneeing.

Boxing is a good compliment to MT. Peter Cunningham beat alot of Thai fighters with his boxing skills. He would corner them and unload 5-7 punch combos at a time. Instead of slipping and keeping their eyes on his chest/shoulders, they tucked their head, pulled up their guard and front leg as if he was going to unload a rear round kick and more than often they got nailed with most of the shots. In another fight, I think it was one of the Rufus bros., got clinched and kneed bad enough to stop the fight. I like watching the west vs. Thailand kickboxing.

Ryan, hear about the guy they call black Bruce Lee (Manson Gibson?). He's an American guy who fights in Thailand who is very unorthodox. He kos thai fighters with spinning back kicks, axe kicks and other fancy high kicks. Very fascinating fighter. Probably kicks as well as Superfoot.

[ryanhall]

Dave,
I don't formally train Thai, but it is definitely an awesome art and my combatives instructor borrows some of the tools (knees/elbows/low Thai kick). If I had a school in my area, I would definitely attend.

From watching some Thai fighters, I know that they would not be able to hold their own in a boxing (punches only) match against a solid boxer. You have to expect that though, as boxers train only with their fists. In an open match, I would put my money on the Muay Thai fighter, all things being equal. Bob...weave...knee to the head...ouch. That said, if the boxer can time the MT guy's low roundhouse and come with a hard cross, it'll be lights out for him.

I like Muay Thai's use of the clinch (even though it's a bit too upright for the street or the octagon), and I think it would be very effective against a boxer. It's easy to acquire, and a knee or an elbow will do a lot of damage. To illustrate the strength of the clinch, just watch an uneven western boxing match. The inferior fighter will stay at range and then come in and grab the better fighter to protect himself from the better figher's punches. It ruins the match, as the better guy doesn't get an opportunity to show his stuff. If the poor puncher was a Thai fighter, he might be able to throw in some knees (which happen to hurt a hell of a lot more than a body hook) and elbows to end the fight.

You should definitely look into western boxing if you're into competition. Even if you're not, it wouldn't be a bad idea. I do it for power and hand speed, which helps me out with my combatives stuff. It's also a great way to work out with a good resisting opponent.

Hope that helps.

[dave_UK_MT]

So as a boxer whats your opinion of Thai Boxing?

Do you see it as being inferior in the hands dept but with superior leg/knee/elbow techniques or does it depend on the indivduals skill.

In a 'boxing vs Muay Thai' fight who would win (all things being equal)???

As a Thai Boxer myself I reckon some pure boxing training would benefit me greatly, something I must look into.

[ryanhall]

Boxing surpasses most Oriental Martial Arts in the use of hands, footwork and philosophy. Boxing is straight forward, simple and effective. It's common for lamen to dismiss boxing as a legitimate fighting art, because they're thinking in terms of sports. However, as many FIGHTERS will tell you, boxing is lethal if you're good. The toughest people you'll ever encounter will have some sort of boxing training. Rather than rely on fancy blocks or forms, boxing provides a sound strategy — make them miss and strike.

I currently box about 5 days a week, and I can definitely attest to your statement of boxers being a tough lot. A good boxer will beat a lot of people, and that's just the way it is. Their use of the hands is excellent, and their training methods are equally good (except for the speed bag, which I hate because it teaches you to open your centerline). That said, boxers are very vulnerable to in close fighting and use of the elbows, knees, and head. Boxers are tough, but there are naster blows than punching out there. As a rule, boxers will top most martial artists. It's not the be all and end all either though. I think the best thing about boxing is that it produces fighters who can hit and be hit in a short time.