Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[grubbogoppoly]

We have everything you could want to do. There is your basic kicking and punching to incredibly advanced aerial kick combos(I personally would never do an aerial kick. The benefit of this is increasing human capacity. If you can drive a side kick into a guys chest while kicking another guy 2 feet away with a front kick just imagine what you can do while kicking on the ground). We do grappling, throws and joint locks from many different positions(they also teach you in a progression that teaches you how to flow from one technique to the next.) Since we know how to hurt we also know how to heal(maxabustion and acupuncture off the top of my head). It also includes meditation and tai chi type exercises. But really to answer your question more completely I would say it is because the instructors that I have are incredibly talented and can give me the info for anything I need to improve upon. They get down to every dirty little detail that I need to be able to understand and then later apply. If you want to check out a site. .the World headquarters website is http://hwarangdo.com

[ryanhall]

But how does this make it good for self-defense? You didn't really answer my question. If you're only thinking in terms of punching and kicking, you are missing the majority of what self-defense entails.

By the way, aerial kicks, hip punching, and most standing joint locks would probably fall under the category of 'useless stuff' in terms of self-defense.

[madmax420]

what the hell is hwa rang do.

[grubbogoppoly]

Hey. .Did you not read my post at all?
First point you had was if your only doing kicking and punching then you are missing the majority of what self defense entails:
Let me just restate what i said before since you didn't read. We do everything from GRAPPLING, JOINT LOCKS, kicking and punching, to weapons. I could keep going but there is just to much to list. Name anything which you consider self defense and I will almost guarantee you it is contained in our curriculum.

Second. .you say aerial kicks and hip punches are innefective. 1. When did I say we only do hip punching. Yes we do punching from the hip. But I would never do this on the street this is simply a training tool to increase strength and general health. Would you go into a boxing match without doing your weight training?
As to the aerial kicks. .If you had read the damn post then you would have seen that I said I would never do an aerial kick but it is good for improving your kicks while on the ground. If you can kick in the air good you can kick on the ground even better.

You say joint locks are ineffective..Do not consider a type of technique ineffective because you either can not understand the concepts behind them or had a bad teacher who taught you improper technique. Instructors are ineffective not the techniques.

[grubbogoppoly]

Mad max. .If you are really interested then go to hwarangdo.com. You can check out some clips, the curriculum, find certified acadamies and instructors. There are also archives from magazines which are quite interesting as well.

[ryanhall]

Defensive, aren't we?

Yes, I did read your post.

By 'punching and kicking,' I mean physical tools.

And yes, wrist locks are extremely difficult to apply under the effects of an adrenaline dump and against a resisting opponent. Even if you wanted to apply one of them, you would be well served by beating the other guy into a pulp before trying your technique (thus negating the purpose of control in the first place).

If you can kick in the air good you can kick on the ground even better

I disagree. You would be better served practicing your kicks on the ground. That's like saying 'my inefficient training makes be better at the workable stuff I don't practice.'

You say joint locks are ineffective..Do not consider a type of technique ineffective because you either can not understand the concepts behind them or had a bad teacher who taught you improper technique. Instructors are ineffective not the techniques.

You assume quite a bit. I can wrist lock any bastard when they are standing still or going half-assed, but I consider these fine motor, percentage of success, control techniques to be unworthy of constant practice. As does everybody else I know with a modicum of real experience.

Yes we do punching from the hip.

Why the hell would you practice something that you won't do 'in the street?'

this is simply a training tool to increase strength and general health

Care to explain to me how this increases general health and strength more than punching from a high guard.

You perform in reality the same way that you practice (provided that you don't freeze--which happens to quite a few people). You can't expect to take every fight to the ground in the ring and in practice but fight on your feet in the clinch when the real thing happens. If you spend you time hip punching, high kicking, and doing other such nonsense, then you might well try that stuff when your ass is on the line.

Your response...

[madmax420]

when it comes to stand up fighting muay thai is number one

[grubbogoppoly]

"I disagree. You would be better served practicing your kicks on the ground. That's like saying 'my inefficient training makes be better at the workable stuff I don't practice.'"
Aerial kicks are simply a kick you do on the ground except for in the air. So if you practice a flying side kick then you are still practicing a side kick.
"I can wrist lock any bastard when they are standing still or going half-assed, but I consider these fine motor, percentage of success, control techniques to be unworthy of constant practice. As does everybody else I know with a modicum of real experience."
Like I said. .You have to understand concepts. The reason you can wrist lock anyone who is standing still is because you can adjust as much you want without retaliation. However if someone is resisting it does make it harder if you don't understand how the techniques work TOGETHER.. If you understand that they should work together then you will realize when you try to do a wrist lock one direction they will likely either pull away or go the opposite way. If you still have control of the joint then you just do a lock in the direction that they have taken their momentum too. If they disengage by pulling away they have actively created an opening (which you know because you understand the nature of how people will react to this type of technique) which you can take advantage of.

"Care to explain to me how this increases general health and strength more than punching from a high guard"
The reason that hip punching increases strength and general health is that you have to open up the chest which stretches out blood vessels and causes increased blood flow. As to the power. The more distance your punch travels the more power it will have(all other things being equal). Hip punching(assuming you are talking from a horse stance) teaches you how to properly use your hips in the punch as well.

"You perform in reality the same way that you practice (provided that you don't freeze--which happens to quite a few people). You can't expect to take every fight to the ground in the ring and in practice but fight on your feet in the clinch when the real thing happens. If you spend you time hip punching, high kicking, and doing other such nonsense, then you might well try that stuff when your ass is on the line"
Yes you perform the way you practice. This is why you only do hip punching when doing forms. When sparring and shadowboxing I never hip punch. No martial artist should. Sparring and shadow boxing is the time when you work on keeping the secondary and all that stuff you are talking about.
By the way. .high kicking? When did I ever say we do high kicking? We never kick above the waist. That is the reason for jump kicks(which again, since you make me, I would never do in a real fight). You jump up so that your hips are in line with the kick. But anyways, I will have to say you can not change from the way you train to the way you fight. This is why you train yourself with something specific in mind. Hip punch for health and power training. Sparring for combinations and defense and movement.

[ryanhall]

We'll have to agree to disagree a bit here, but thank you for explaining yourself.

[grubbogoppoly]

No, problem. Always good to hear different ideas. Just curious. But it seems to me that you think that joint locks are effective with practice but just don't want to put in the work. You said you could lock up anyone that was just standing there but it takes to much fine motor work and practice. Was I right in what I got from that? Didn't really see any other "reason" why you feel they are ineffective. Again, I am just curious as to your reasoning.

[ryanhall]

When I said that I could lock up anyone, I was exaggerating a bit. If they are standing bolt still and allow me to get my hands on them without doing anything or resisting, I can lock them no problem. If they grab my wrist and stand there like a zombie, I can slap a lock on. If they grab my wrist and try to take my head off with a big hook, I don't have much faith in my ability to apply a lock or even block whatever they are throwing at me--at close range, it is extremely, extremely difficult to pick off a non-telegraphic blow (this illustrates the importance of keeping distance between yourself and an aggressor whenever possible--you simply can't move fast enough to prevent him from striking, stabbing, or grabbing you non-telegraphically at close range).

I feel that standing joint locks are ineffective and unworthy of my practice time for the following reasons:

1) They are very fine motor skills. As such, my ability to apply them will decrease SEVERELY under the stress of a violent situation.
2) Since I don't make a habit of getting into it with drunk relatives and I'm not a bouncer, I don't have any reason for using tactics that low on the use of force scale.
3) Strength, flexibility, and pain tolerance can negate them very easily.
4) They are hard to apply, period.
5) I am putting both of my hands on one of his. This means that, if he is quick, he can hit me before I can defend myself.
6) Applying a wrist lock on a resisting opponent, even a small one, is very difficult without softening them up with a low of strikes.
7) Nobody has ever been able to joint lock me when I was trying to take their head off. Nor have I been able to do it to them.
8) I will have one pissed off dude on the other end of the lock (if I am able to get it), and I have to let him go sometime.

There are more, but these are the big ones in my mind. The first and last ones are the most important points.

[Thai Bri]

grubb - Just consider the possibility that you might be in a theoretical fantasy world as regards what works in a real fight.

[grubbogoppoly]

1) They are very fine motor skills. As such, my ability to apply them will decrease SEVERELY under the stress of a violent situation.
2) Since I don't make a habit of getting into it with drunk relatives and I'm not a bouncer, I don't have any reason for using tactics that low on the use of force scale.
3) Strength, flexibility, and pain tolerance can negate them very easily.
4) They are hard to apply, period.
5) I am putting both of my hands on one of his. This means that, if he is quick, he can hit me before I can defend myself.
6) Applying a wrist lock on a resisting opponent, even a small one, is very difficult without softening them up with a low of strikes.
7) Nobody has ever been able to joint lock me when I was trying to take their head off. Nor have I been able to do it to them.
8) I will have one pissed off dude on the other end of the lock (if I am able to get it), and I have to let him go sometime.

Just trying to give you something to think about. .First your two most important ones.
1) They are very fine motor skills. As such, my ability to apply them will decrease SEVERELY under the stress of a violent situation.
Yes it is a very fine motor skill and that is why it takes LOTS of practice. As to the stress response, if you TRULY understand the technique then it will just happen out of response. Second if you understand the technique and feel you can deal with anything that they throw at you then you can deal with the stress of a situation more easily.

8) I will have one pissed off dude on the other end of the lock (if I am able to get it), and I have to let him go sometime.
You don't think he will be pissed off if you hit him in the face???

Now to some of the other points.
2) Since I don't make a habit of getting into it with drunk relatives and I'm not a bouncer, I don't have any reason for using tactics that low on the use of force scale.

You are saying that you have never encountered a beligerant drunk or someone who simply WAS GOING TO FIGHT WITH YOU no matter what you did? Even if that is the case. .You think that a broken wrist is low on the pain scale? If so then I would hate to know what you think actually hurts. If you break a guys wrist then he also can't use this, one less thing you have to worry about.

3) Strength, flexibility, and pain tolerance can negate them very easily.
Yes there are some people(very very few, but they are out there. My nickname is gumby). Those that are very flexible strong or have high pain tolerance are the ones that joint locks would probably be necessary to use. You think hitting or kicking will be better than breaking a wrist. Even if they can tolerate the pain, they can't hit you and that is a definite plus.
4) They are hard to apply, period
If you don't put in the practice time. Everything takes time. The first time you sparred were you any good? No, it just takes time. They are put to use (people in my classes, including the lower belts talk about what has been effective for them on the street. It is of course normally the simplest one.). We have several police officers in our classes who have put them to use.
5) I am putting both of my hands on one of his. This means that, if he is quick, he can hit me before I can defend myself.
This would be a valid point if you HAD to use both hands to do them. You don't by the way. But, for arguments sake. If that is the only way that you can do them. Again these techniques are just like anything else you do it and it works or you do it and it doesn't. That is one of the concepts that you must understand. You might not get the technique perfect, if not then just move right into something else, whether it be a punch, block kick or etc. It is all about fluidity of motion. If you throw a punch and leave it out there of course it won't work. Same thing with joint locks. If you throw a punch out there and miss no big deal you pull it back and follow up or defend.
6) Applying a wrist lock on a resisting opponent, even a small one, is very difficult without softening them up with a low of strikes.
In boxing is any one punch on its own good against a resisting opponent. I think that is the best way to respond to that one. There is no one technique. Joint locks are just one tool in your arsenal. If the technique is there then you use it, if not then you don't force it. Everything has to work in unison not on its own.
7) Nobody has ever been able to joint lock me when I was trying to take their head off. Nor have I been able to do it to them.
Well, earlier you made it sound like you had never gotten in a fight. So this is just a MINUTE sample. Nobody you know has probably been able to hit a baseball 400 ft. Does that mean it can't be done?
Just some food for thought.

[grubbogoppoly]

Thai. .your profile shows you have studied nothing. I don't know why you are even here. .and isn't this a forum. As in you talk about theories, ideas, concepts and events?

[grubbogoppoly]

Just so you know mad max. Hwa rang do contains all of the kicks, knees and elbows that muay thai uses.