Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[mr. bond]

boxers train with a huge amount of intensity and repetition, which results in a powerful guy who's basically "hard as a coffin nail", to quote Snatch. their punches are probably the best in the MA world, and keeping it simple can sometimes be an advantage.

there's huge variances in asian MA, but i think you'll find two basic things for any of them as compared to boxing/MT/BJJ:
1) 99.9% of schools will be less intense in their physical training and drilling.
2) you'll cover a greater range of situations.

[ad_infinitum]

this thread started as a lot more generic question about a boxing Asian MA comparison and evolved in a Boxing Vs Thai thing.
I won't stray from this as it seems to be the focal point of the discussion.

Personally I've trained as a kickboxer (fighting with low kicks rules for ~2yrs) with enough fighting experience in regionals and such (no knees/elbows, no clinch experience other than sporadically in training bouts only) but I believe I have a good grasp of the muai thai concepts be it from a trained spectator aspect.
Also I've boxed regularly for about 3 yrs. (I weigh in at 69kg 6ft just in case you need to setme up for a friendly bout, I hope not all arguments in this forum come to that ??)
to the point:
there is such a thing as an inverse simplicity/proficiency ratio...
meaning that the average to good boxer is in far better command of his tecniques than the average to good muai thai fighter. I will not consider exceptional fighters from either discipline.

the comparison is in my opinion a little biased against boxing because it doesn't take into account the many things thai has borrowed from boxing tecnique. Who doesn't remember some years back, thai boxers with a ridiculus upper body fighting stance (hands open on either side of the head, too extended by far) lending no passive defenses to the head.
Compare this with the "traditional" boxing stances adopted by most modern (as in last decade) thai fighters.
So boxing is an essential part of everyday training for the thai boxer.

boxing training on the other hand involves no kicking whatsoever!

So the question is really: what rules??
a boxer getting into a fight with thai rules without having had some sort of coaching will have no luck at all. He will not even be able to recognize attacks originating below the waist as a threat source. Even though boxers have very trained legs, conditioning is a whole different proposition. Even a medium impact low kick will leave a boxer limping, and deny him the mobility he needs to avoid ensuing attacks. So he would have to be both wary of the legs and lucky to close the distance without getting hit with a damaging kick, and then stay inside and do some damage of his own with his superior boxing skills.
Now if a thai fighter was to get into a boxing contest with a good boxer or fight with boxing rules I'd give the boxer a 80/20 chance of winning at this time. (the balance will change over time but mainly because of the thai fighters incorporating more and more western boxing tecniques in their training)

Now guys don't go telling me that the comparison should be made on the more complete art's terms or some such. (because the thread more and more resembles one with a subject of "can boxers make it in muai thai?"). Both sports are artificial forms of confrontation with an arbitrary set of rules (I mean why not biting eye-gouging, joint dislocations and such).

to wrap it up, it would be a lot more productive to focus on what thai fighter would have to do to further improve his boxing skills?
what should a boxer do to expand his fighting arsenal, or to become good in muai thai (if he cares to make that transition, he already has made very good progress in the part of muai thai that involves boxing)

Bye for now

[Tom Yum]

Ad_infinitum, you're for real and you said it like it is.

Boxing is a regular part of training in muay thai. MT is a little more upright to avoid knees, but everything above the legs (excluding elbows and clinching) is taken from western boxing.

Good post.

[Arms_Of_Thor]

Its not to difficult to learn how to throw a few proper kicks. If you have a good round house, & steep kick I think you have a chance against a decent MT boxer.

[dave_UK_MT]

Originally posted by Arms_Of_Thor
Its not to difficult to learn how to throw a few proper kicks. If you have a good round house, & steep kick I think you have a chance against a decent MT boxer.

Sorry but it IS difficult. The basic principle is easy but getting correct form and control over your kicks takes a lot of time and practice.

Just to add.
I sparred with a former British heavyweight thai boxer and 2001 UK K1 competitor last week; his boxing skills were excellent and when we just went hands only he very much had the upperhand, in fact he would've battered me silly if it'd been a real fight. It was mainly in the close quarters situations where he just worked the body, I was having to hold back my knee/clinch. However, when thai boxing we were at a much similar level and I was holding my own (bear in mind he's got 10 years experience on me) and I was catching him with good high and mid point kicks that were stifling his excellent body shots (thank god, they fking hurt)..

Anyway, point is 'Boxing only' the boxer will win, introduce legs/elbows/knees and the Thai Boxer will win. FULL STOP.

Thats assuming both fighters are equally matched.

[Nothingness]

Why brags on systems?

Pardon my intrusion, but let me give a fresh perspective:

No systems (boxing, asian martial arts, etc.) will guarantee you to be the best fighter.

The systems only provide you with their accumulate experiences on the training and fighting methods.

Some people grasp them well, some don't.

How do you compare an apple with an orange?

One way to do it is from the content of their vitamin C

So, which one has more vitamin C? Apple or orange?

It all depends on each individual fruit.

Even if (lets say) apples have more vitamin C in average, some oranges (lets say) can have more vitamin C than some apples.

You can't deviate the statistics.

Studying how to fight is studying your own body. You learn about your own body and learn about its strenghts and weaknesses.

Again, systems don't matter. When you are good, you are good. As long as you get the job done.

Just train harder and smarter. One minute you spend here speculating is one minute you are NOT spending for your training.

Good luck.

[Tom Yum]

Nice.

The purpose of this post was to show the relative differences in boxing and muay thai and their boxing component - I think one of the opinions was that a boxer could best a muay thai fighter if each were to use their own rules.

The overwhelming consensus was that boxers spend 100% of their time working on hands, so naturally they are better with their hands wheras muay thai fighters can develop pretty good boxing skills, but also rely alot on kicks, elbows and knees to deliver their KOs.

With no preparation in Thai rules fighting, the MT fighter wins. In a boxing rules match, the thai boxer would be comfortable enough with boxing but not have the same time investment and training as the boxer and would loose. In the past 10 years, muay thai fighters have dabbled in boxing. Historically, some of the top 10 pro western boxers in the light weight, feather weight and bantam weight divisions have been from Thailand.

Check out the thread posted in the archives called "San Shou vs. Boxing" It was an exhbition match of San Shou fighters vs. American boxers.

[Nothingness]

Khaosay Galaxy ....

[Tom Yum]

Good example of the crossover from Muay Thai into pro-boxing. Lucia Rijker has done the same in Women's Boxing.

[SilverWolf33]

Originally posted by TheSod_88
Oriental arts r a damn joke!

We have an idiot. Boxing alone is worthless! You have to be able to strike with every part of your body, fruitcake! You might as well be fighting with your penis.

[Nothingness]

A very common naiveness: this system is better than that.
None system is better than the other; it is necessary for each indivudual person to become cultivated in his own method of training.

I like your Sun Tzu's quote. I think this is a good application:

- Boxing's training focuses on the practicality for its intended match. However, protection gears and rules are applied to avoid serious injuries. Hence, its own reinforcement has also become its weaknesses.
- Oriental martial arts (using a generalize terminology), although based on centuries of real combat experiences, has become too formalized in its training. Although the formalized moves train certain desired reflex behaviors, their guileless advocates might never understand the real meaning of the movement and it ends up as a dance. Hence, its own reinforcement has also become its weaknesses.

Of course we have our own believes, that's why we are training in different systems. Unless you are burdened to be the world best and are ready to face any challenges, it is pointless to say which system is the best. Even you can be the best, it is only temporary until someone better (from a different system) beats you.

So, just cheer up and enjoy your training.

[Arms_Of_Thor]

There is a to much theory here go spar and fight and see for your own knowledge seen? You can talk and think shit over in yourhead but its all shit on the street or ring. Keep training and May the good lord protect you mi bredren.

[Arms_Of_Thor]

What I am saying is that yo need to find your own style that work for you and your own techniques. or example Im a southaw and when I see a thai players leg assault coming I can stuff the kick, or a steep kick to the gut. Mosley wouldnt be where he is now fighting like tyson.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by Arms_Of_Thor
Mosley wouldnt be where he is now fighting like tyson.

Excellent point. Boxers have their own styles and sometimes one style is good at overcoming another i.e Byrd vs. Hollyfield, Sanders vs. Klitschko

[sercuerdas]

arms of thor
I just switched from conventional to south paw, could you please elaborate on dealing with the round kick. I seem to eat a lot to the groin. should i front kick with the front or rear leg? and will jabbing hard and circling right help?
thanx...