Wing Chun Kung Fu

[tai-gip]

ok so you know the eye strike and have repeatedly poked your fingers through someones eyes

you know several kicks to the knee and have broken several legs with each of them .

you know several joint break locks and have broken several joints with each of them...

ok so cars drive on the road but if you buy a car of someone who drives you around in it to make sure it works you wont be sure yourself it drives unless you drive it yourself

stupid so i was taught to fire a riffle at a man shaped target but because i havnt shot someone im not sure the bullet will hit them ?

Ipon you figure it out for yourself look at the blocking motion as a thrust to strike an attacking limb and then look at the limb being a human body you are striking then based on height and positioning think about the varietys of are you can strike with it
eg person side on arm bar or elbow strike to rib cage...person striaght on edge hand strike inside hip joint etc... fu

fut sao is you arm stretched straight elbow and little finger up thumb down ..and this can be used as a throat strike for eg incoming round punch attcking pak sao then fut strike to throat
any others

[IPON]

Originally posted by tai-gip
every block is a strike keep thinking that

wing chun is one limb block and strike at the same time leaving you the other three limbs to reak utter havoc

Tai gip - this was not a teaching question as such. Originally I responded to this this quote stating that not every block is a strike and you responded asking me to give to a block and you would explain how it is a strike.

I gave the example of bong sau and gan sau. And I did ackknowlege how one may consider gan sau a strike but it, itself, is never realistically used as a strike just a block (at least I would not use to strike). And Bong sau, yes an elbow strike can be seen from this techinique, but that is not how it is used in reality. I think you are referring to FUK sau not fut sau. Fuk sau being the resting on the bridge and half of chi sao which can be used as a strike, but you do not transition from gan sau to fuk sau, like say you would transition from jut sau to bil gee or tan sau to palm strike. And it still does not explain how bong sau or gan sau are simultaneous block and (effective) strike (meaning to damage). Pak sau is technically a strike/block but strike is not intended to damage per se

Ultamitely, I think we are on the same page about the concepts and effectiveness of Wing Chun....that it is effective

[Szczepankiewicz]

Tai-gip,

Is English your first language? This is a serious question that I will take into account as we debate.

We don't go for eye strikes, we don't lock to break or strike to break. Those are improbable and have a low percentage of actually happening.

Sure, I can stick my fingers in someones eyes. I can extend a lock to past where the breaking point should be. I can shoot a paper target and visualize it's an adversary I'm trying to kill.

However, the difference in my training is that these are only options taken to an extreme. Something I may or may not be psychologically prepared for and perhaps unable to perform due to a mental block. I don't know.

And therein lies the key fundamental difference between what I train to be 'probable' and what is 'possible'.

I don't pretend during my training that my arm lock will break your elbow. I don't pretend that my kick will break three of your ribs. I don't pretend that anything I do will result in a certain outcome. It is possible that all these things happen, but we train for worst case scenario.

Spanky

[tai-gip]

Szczepankiewicz but that is what i trained for .........

wc has a lot of eye strikes arm breaks,bone breaking strikes,and kicks to the groin its just the way the style is

no dont think im saying ohhh goody isnt all this great ..in fact i hate violence but i thought we where discussing what wc can do

and IPON i am aware of the differance between those "blocks" and i am relatively sure of what im talking about but it dosnt meen we have to have trained the same way or have seen the style in the same light... in what i was taught a pak sao does real damage as a strike... try hitting a wall in pak sao position then you tell me if you think it would be an effective strike

and as to reality i guess its dependant on your own views ...but at the end of the day the truck will run you down no matter how you think you see it

[HuSanYan]

Originally posted by tai-gip
..but at the end of the day the truck will run you down no matter how you think you see it

tai-gip, any truck heading for me would be side stepped, thank you, good evening

[tai-gip]

lol @ husanyan

[Szczepankiewicz]

wc has a lot of eye strikes arm breaks,bone breaking strikes,and kicks

Eye Strikes
Arm breaks
bone breaking strikes
bone breaking kicks

You pull these off on a regular, semi regular, once in a lifetime or what?

You must hash through training partners like crazy.

[tai-gip]

as i said why do you have to follow the function of a technique to its end to know you are physicaly capable of fullfillig the move...

you practice a lot of moves on a wooden dummey,you finger strike sandbags,you strike heavy bags or concrete walls and you know damn well the amount of force you can generate is going to do severe physical damage if you use it on someone..... noing what you can do and using it on someone are completely different topics..... in sparring i was many times able to aquire bone breaking positioning thats how we trained if coped a couple of kicks to the groin and strikes to the eyes through lack of control... its like suggesting you wouldnt have been hit if you didnt block a strike in a non contact spar .... had it been real you wouldnt have

[Szczepankiewicz]

you know damn well the amount of force you can generate is going to do severe physical damage if you use it on someone

That, my fine-feathered friend, is the entire premise of my dissent. You do not know that what you are going to do is going to result the way you want it to. Especially when someone is trying to do you bodily harm at the same time.

Your bone breaking strike may break a bone when you strike, provided a large set of variables fall into line.

The difference is theory versus actual events.

Reason vs. empirical evidence.

Unfortunately, this is a trap that many traditionalists fall into when they receive their so-called self-defense training.

If he does A, I'll do B, causing C to happen leading to me doing D causing him to do E resulting in XYZ....

It's crap.

Just like Always do this and Never do this.

That's also crap.

Now... if you, being the WC expert that you are, can break bones in theory, AND you have broken a few in reality using your all powerful techniques in the middle of a shit storm, then you're argument could very well be valid.

However, can ALL (or most) WC experts use these same techniques to gain similar results consistently?

My answer is decidedly no.

[tai-gip]

umm Szczepankiewicz
we wernt talking about a specific situation based on variables where i may arrive in anyone of multitudes of positions that allow me to break bones or strike eyes yes i would be very easy to do so
im not stating a=b=c im just sying in A situation (whatever that may be) B wich is some kind of break or breaking strike will be possible resulting in outcome C based on lots of training sparring and an understanding of the required positioning

the higher graded students at my school certainly could ..its what we all trained over and over and over and over again not for a set a=b=c situation but to be able to use any of the given strikes to achieve a specific result based on the position the caused that particular strike to flow out

and its not about what the individual is capable of but what the art is possible of

if we are basing the effectiveness of the art on the practitioners then i have a lot of negative things to say about most styles ..but we arnt the style is what it is and is not in anyway defined by the capabilities of the individual .. im not saying its better just it is effective ...but to me so was tkd when i was traiining so was kickboxing karate etc

[Szczepankiewicz]

its what we all trained over and over and over and over again

Did you train to break the bone or did you train to almost break the bone but held back because you knew if you struck you would break the bone???


Also, you can break the bone at any time because that is what you trained for?

[tai-gip]

seriously how many times do you want me to say the same thing
lol

look in the instance that you dont know what will happen in any given situation you cant say 100% that anything in particular will deffinately happen and have a specified result so you cant even gaurentee that you wont spontaniously combust when attacked killing yourself and the attacker

but being as how we both now this is a hypothetical discussion based on actaul techniques taught and trained in a particular style re-read what i said

[Szczepankiewicz]

I read, re-read, and re-re-read what you posted. It still smacks of the same thing. You say you know that you can break bones on demand without actually doing it.

Either you can or you can not. Which is it?

[tai-gip]

umm re-read again and tell me what you think im saying i thought it was pretty obvious ...

[Szczepankiewicz]

Answer the question slick.

Or would you like me to answer for you?

My answer is that you cannot break bones (and execute the other dangerous moves) at will with your powerful WC strikes, even though you have convinced yourself and your training partners that you can.