wing chun centre line punch

[krys]

Isn't a whole year enough to allow you to thoroughly explore a system? If a style was any good, training in it for a year should make you good enough to use it effectively. All this "it takes 30 years to master" bull shit really means that the art is bollocks.

I think it's not enough for a traditional system..... of course i wouldn't wait 30 years....

You can easily get results in BJJ, MT, Boxing after one year even with an average teacher.... this is not the case with traditional asian martial arts....
things are often hidden in tmas and won't be shown to beginner's, you usually have to earn the trust of your instructor before learning anything good. Learning foundations is also a process that can take years... worse if you have a bad teacher you won't learn anything and just spend your time/money. And there aren't that many good tma instructors in the west...

That's why 99.99% can't useTai Chi, in the Philippines we have chinese peoples who know how to use it to fight, they train in a different way (spending time punching-kicking rice bags, carriyng heavy stones during training, sparring...).

I 've been in a few brawls in Thailand, my mate had done WC for 9 years in Shanghai... I can assure you I saw MT peoples using chairs to defend themselves....

[chris davis 200]

Wing Chun + double leg takedown = splat goes the WC practitioner

I have sparred WingChun many times.

Fast hands and good low kicks.

No Idea about throwing though! at all! the stance, the centerline theory etc etc does not allow for defence against throws.

Of course you have gotta get past those hands first!!

[Mookjong5]

My question is are you right or left handed? Im right handed and it tends to be my stronger punch so I have to work on my left a little more. Like mentioned before, punch a heavy bag. When you throw you punch, picture your hands as pistons and use that rotary action. This gets the natural punching motion in progress and keep practicing and soon it will be natural. I hope this helps.




IF WAR IS HELL, TAKE A BETTER PITCHFORK THAN THE DEVIL

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by krys


I think it's not enough for a traditional system..... of course i wouldn't wait 30 years....

You can easily get results in BJJ, MT, Boxing after one year even with an average teacher.... this is not the case with traditional asian martial arts....
things are often hidden in tmas and won't be shown to beginner's, you usually have to earn the trust of your instructor before learning anything good. Learning foundations is also a process that can take years... worse if you have a bad teacher you won't learn anything and just spend your time/money. And there aren't that many good tma instructors in the west...

That's why 99.99% can't useTai Chi, in the Philippines we have chinese peoples who know how to use it to fight, they train in a different way (spending time punching-kicking rice bags, carriyng heavy stones during training, sparring...).

I 've been in a few brawls in Thailand, my mate had done WC for 9 years in Shanghai... I can assure you I saw MT peoples using chairs to defend themselves....

Oh yes, I forgot. The hidden "secrets" of the traditional martial arts. Does Santa Claus know them? Don't forget to be a good boy, or he might not bring you anythig.

[tai-gip]

thai i dont think that is what he is saying

i spent four years full time on wc ruffly 12 hours per day meaning all i did was eat drink do wc i admit at the time i was obsessed mostly because my best friend killed himself ( no not to get away from me ) and i needed to focus on something

i would actualy dream most nights about usses for the blocks and it took me sometime to see all the blocks as strikes.. and to put my theories into practice.. every block is also a simultanious finger strike and i do consider that pretty brutal.. more so that any other striking style i have seen or participated in and it appears you didnt pick this up in your training ...
when you do the shil lim tao view everymove as a penetrating strike blocking on the way ..... thats one hand... h=get used to thinking like that and training and sparring like that....now do something with your other hand.... get used to that...what about your legs....

im not saying wc is the ultimate...... there is no ground work..they dont train enough against blocking / checking kicks and they do tend to think they are good ... but it truly has some awsome hand techniques

do you know the shil lim tao thai bri ?

[Thai Bri]

Not any more. We learned it, for what it was worth. To me it was more a way of documenting the techniques, storing them so they would not be forgotten. I know you will think that I "miss the point", but I do not see any great principles in it.

Yes, I like the idea of a block also being a strike, and vice verca. And we did some of that training. But, for the large part, Wing Chun blocks only really worked on Wing Chun strikes. As they came in on the centre line they were vulnerable to interception. But what happened when the untutored threw a strike from other angles? Firstly they often struck home. Secondly any block was not then used as a strike and, thirdly, the instructor told the guy off for attacking "incorrectly".

WC, like many arts, is too insular. It builds up its strategies to handle its own attacks, often missing out valuable lesons from other styles. This phenomenon is not limited to TMAs. Boxing, Judo, Thai, even MMA and BJJ are all guilty of it to different extents.

As regards blocking in general, I think that they are too much of a distraction. They take much to long to master and, since action beats reaction anyway, they will often fail you. If youb are talking about preparing for a real fight with a real monster in a real street aren't you better off learning a small number of very simple but very nasty strikes? And then putting all your energies into putting them through the guys eyes, throat and groin?

Martial Arts are way too complicated. Think of all the thousands of techniques. Other physical endeavours don't have these silly numbers. How many ways are there to kick a soccer ball? How many ways to hit a baseball? But one of the many mistakes that martial artists make is to think that more is better. Wrong. More is worse.

Have you heard of Hicks Law?

Phew. That flowed out. Wheres the kettle?

[RAB]

Thai,

Don't you still use WC? Wouldn't you still use grappling? Don't you practise MT?

When you train or spar, wouldn't you use all that you know?

Respectfully,

Richard

[tai-gip]

the nasty bits is the shil lim tao look at tan sao straight through your centre line at the attackers eyes/throat can be used to block any upper body strike but you do need to move your feet same for the other blocks

and yeh i know what you mean william cheung is/was like that real arrogant so and so no thats not what i said to throw kind of attitude realy beneficial attitude... but it realy is up to the individual to take what is there as functional iv seen plenty of other styles where they dont actualy know what the moves are or do but theres usualy someone in the class whos figured it out

i could give them the benefit of the doubt and say the instructors are far wiser than they appear and have decided things have more value to people when they figure them out for themselves but thats crap they just dont care dont know themselves of just want the money

eg re tan sao
incoming straight punch use attacking front stance simple turn hand palm upwards from guard and push over incoming arm to penetrate throat..pretty simple though to be honest you can do the same thing by just thrusting in in guard postion dont even need to move you arms just thrust whole body forward as strike same result....tan sao to round use foot work to face inside of round, turn front guard hand palm up forward energy (left tan to left round) tan blocks rear guard moves forward tuning palm up to tan sao to throat strike, tan sao block becomes forward guard hand strike to throat through use of footwork, precautionary pak sao to left round punch arm to maintain contact and insure no further attack generated
thats one block and the guard hand position and i doubt the attacker would be asking for more..... you dont realy think of blocking just that what the attack you with gives you the pathway to the killzone as if you are blind and need to contact to find your target..

its not exactly defensive its designed just to go for kill strikes pretty much move on in over the strike kill move on ...to be honest thank christ more people dont get it

can you think of something that will kill quicker or with less effort that is a martial art using hands and feet

obviously the above is the perfect situation and of course variable enter into it but if you block the variable and tan sao the throat.... plus you should also be attempting to stomp kick a knee with the sneeky wc kicks....

[Thai Bri]

Originally posted by RAB
Thai,

Don't you still use WC? Wouldn't you still use grappling? Don't you practise MT?

When you train or spar, wouldn't you use all that you know?

Respectfully,

Richard

That has got to take the record for most questions in the least number of words.

Do I still use WC? - No.

Wouldn't I still use grappling? - Only if I was forced to.

Don't you practice MT? - Not any more.

When you tain or spar, wouldn't you use all that you know? - No. . I most certainly would not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gippy - the old Tan Sau to the throat is a viable option, though I do have some reservations about it. The upturned and straightened hand does not lend itself well to a strong finger formation, and they may well crumple and/or get injured. The necessary movement to apply the block, calong with an agressors own movement and chin down position, would have an adverse effect on your targeting and, lastly, like I said, why block if you can put all your energies into a hack hack hack attack?

As pretensious as it sounds I have designed my own throat strike, called the "Diamond". It is best thrown pre-emptively from a "fence" position, along with a verbal deception (to dull reaction time). Here is a long and boring description of it.

The hand is outstretched, palm facing the assailants chest. The fingers are very close to him, but it is held below his natural eye-line. He will, of course, know it is there but, along with the appropriate body language and dialogue, will presume it to be a non threatening concilliatory gesture.

He will not be in a fighting stance and, hence, the chin will not be down, covering the throat area.

At the moment of launch, the collapses into a fist as it is thrust forwards and upwards under the jaw and into the throat. But it is the second knuckles that connect, not the main ones.

The fist is horizontal, the thumb tip held against the forefinger (so the thumb is at the side of the hand, not underneath it), and the wrist angled back to expose the afore mentioned second knuckles. The body weight is thrust forward as the lead leg is raised, being stamped down the instant after the strike has landed. Think of a Leopards Paw, but with a fully clenched fist instead of an outstretched one to eliminate the danger of hand injury.

Due to the short distance, deception and lack of telegraphed movement, this method is almost certain to smack into the throat with real, solid power. It is called the Diamond due to the shape and angle of the fist when viewed from the thumb side.

It can also be thrown from the hands by your side position but will, of course, take matginally longer to reach the target.

There. Why did I bore everyone with that? Maybe because so many martial artists piss about with punching, blocking, trapping, wrist locking, throwing and general shite, when real methods of turning your hands into deadly weapons are there for the taking and very easy to learn.

[IPON]

Originally posted by Thai Bri

WC, like many arts, is too insular. It builds up its strategies to handle its own attacks, often missing out valuable lesons from other styles. This phenomenon is not limited to TMAs. Boxing, Judo, Thai, even MMA and BJJ are all guilty of it to different extents.

Bri I understand what you are saying, but IMHO you had a bad instructor. If I could strike my sifu and he cannot defend you are right there is not point to continue. In wing chun the test of an instructor is chi sao. If I my chi sao is better than yours, you can't teach me anything (not totally accurate but 90%).

How I learned wing chun and blocking examples were always given of how this was effective against other styles. The only exception is ground fighting and that is because (I think) a wing chun stylist doesn’t feel they can be removed from their base (I am not arguing right or wrong just philosophy).

Wing Chun is the simplest MA. Forgetting the issue of time, do you think if a person dedicated themselves to truly "real world" master a style the benefit would be worth it. Granted not many people have the luxury of training 10hrs a day from 7yrs old to 25yrs, because we have to work got to school and sex is really important

I have always felt that the variety of techniques helps a stylist to combat a variety of situations. We don't need this for sports like baseball and soccer. However, if you ever pitched (I never have) there are a lot of techniques and types of pitching depending on the situation.

Anyway just my thoughts...Oh yeah what is hicks law

[RAB]

Thia,

I think you have made some good points such as 1 year vs. 30 years and how many ways to kick a soccer ball.

It’s unfortunate that you wasted you time in your previous training. I’m sure that if you were exposed to something valuable you would have retained for future use. One of the most important parts of MA training is patients and your previous training seems to have only offered opportunity, but nothing that would meet your immediate goals. I wish that your future training will lead you to success.

I appreciate your compliment. “That has got to take the record for most questions in the least number of words.” I try to streamline my training as well.

Respectfully,

Richard

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by chris davis 200


I have sparred WingChun many times.

Fast hands and good low kicks.

No Idea about throwing though! at all! the stance, the centerline theory etc etc does not allow for defence against throws.

Of course you have gotta get past those hands first!!

Chris Davis 200: Cool...what do you study--if you don't mind my asking?

Thai Bri: That sounds effective, quite ingenious. I'm king of confused by "the second knuckles" because of the plural form. Do you mean the two furthest from the thumb?

The throat chop I use is thrown direct and in a horizontal position with palm down. The hand is tilted inward so that I hit with the meaty part of my hand, opposite of my thumb, to avoid busting fingers, and such. Basically, it is designed to fit where the fist won't.

[krys]

As regards blocking in general, I think that they are too much of a distraction. They take much to long to master and, since action beats reaction anyway, they will often fail you.

It is better to dodge, deflect, step in/out to avoid getting hit but if your opponent is too fast
blocks will be your last line of defence.
Imagine a finger jab gets near your eyes you will be quite happy to be able to block it.
I do not favor blocks but they can also be used to inflict pain to your opponent or can transform easily into catchs/grabs...

[chris davis 200]

Cool...what do you study--if you don't mind my asking?

Traditional JuJutsu, Chinese internal arts (tai chi and Ba gua Mainly, with some Hsing I)

cheers
Chris

[chris davis 200]

As regards blocking in general, I think that they are too much of a distraction. They take much to long to master and, since action beats reaction anyway, they will often fail you.

I think this is true of conventional, block - then counter - block then counter.

But the combination of taking action against an action is far better.

As in - block while hitting, block while hitting.

Cheers
Chris