mixing Wing Chun and Boxing?

[Thai Bri]

I like to think so. Not many agree!

[Seismic Anamoly]

Thai Bri & T3,


Bruce Lee?

The same guy who never finished learning Wing Chun, yet created his own system (based off wing chun by the way). Isnt that akin, to someone learning half of the English alphabet and declaring, "English does not work. I say we use Swahili instead". So ok, Bruce incorporated Boxing. He also incorporated from various other martial arts as well. But at the root of it all, his creation had no principal that wasnt already derived from Wing Chun. "Use whats best for you", Well gee what school DOESNT say that? So exactly who is "Everyone" that often quotes from Bruce Lee to prove Wing Chun is a great art. It sure as hell isn't me.

I'm sorry, but in my years of learning Wing Chun I never once heard anyone refer to Bruce Lee as being the Be All End All to Wing Chun. Granted, I'm sure some people do, but amongst others Bruce Lee is just the guy who brought Wing Chun to the Westerners attention and was also a movie star.

Counter to Bruce Lee incorporating Boxing into his JKD, however, is Wong Shun Leung (Bruce Lee's elder student and Yip Man's senior student instructor in Hong Kong). Who was a golden glove boxer and left boxing for Wing Chun. Wong Shun Leung felt Wing Chun was more complete and efficient. A fact often overlooked by skeptics and misinformed people. Food for thought. Peace.




-SA

[Thai Bri]

I didn't know they had the Golden Gloves in Hong Kong.


By the way, you don't have to study something completely to decide that it si not a good art. If you do NOT bleieve me, then pop over ot the UK. I'll teach you my super dooper "Pulling Faces and Sucking My Thumb" self defence style. Oh yes! In just 10 short years (and God knows how many dollars) you will be a Master of the style.

And, of course, you will not be qualified to reject it until you've studied it all.

[Seismic Anamoly]

The boxing circuit was running huge in Hong Kong in the 50's. Mostly in part to british sailors I would assume, doing something when they weren't drinking, swearing, and visiting brothels (as if they needed an excuse).

True you do not have to study something "completely" to decide its a good or bad art. But I question when people say "Bruce Lee said Wing Chun was a bad art" or anything remotely to that effect. Bruce Lee took what he learned and added his spin on it. Footnote to that was that he later asked Ip Man to teach him the rest of the system (and of course was denied). At any rate, most of Bruce Lee's criticism of "flowery" arts stemmed to many of the other kung fu styles he encountered. He may or may not have had gripes with Wing Chun, but I've yet to see where he publicly came out to say "Wing Chun wasn't a good art". Going to the original point, JKD was founded on Wing Chun principles and then added others along the way. The root truth of it is, Bruce Lee's training was incomplete. He filled his own gaps. So this idea of WC being inferior because Bruce Lee left it and added his own ideas is based on misperception and half truths.

Now, how long does it take to figure out something doesnt work? Well its all subjective. I'll be glad to learn your martial art of "pulling faces etc.." if I can put my spin on it. Which in turn makes for a better superior way of making pouty faces.


-SA

[Thai Bri]

But you have an unfair advantage, as you already have a funny face.

Anyway, I've only recently heard this about Bruce Lee supposedly going back to Yip Man, cap in hand, beging to be taught the "complete" system. Personally I do not believe it, and it can be recorded as one of the many many Wing Chun yarns.

[Tom Yum]

Counter to Bruce Lee incorporating Boxing into his JKD, however, is Wong Shun Leung (Bruce Lee's elder student and Yip Man's senior student instructor in Hong Kong). Who was a golden glove boxer and left boxing for Wing Chun. Wong Shun Leung felt Wing Chun was more complete and efficient. A fact often overlooked by skeptics and misinformed people. Food for thought. Peace.

Of course Wing chun is more complete; the art includes elbows, knees and kicks - not to mention spear fingers and palm strikes.

At the time you are talking about (HK circa 1960??), what choices of MA's did you have? wing chun, taiji, choy lay fut and maybe Hung Gar?? There were the famous bare knuckle roof top challenges amongs wc practionters but also between wc and clf. What if traditional muay thai training was available in HK at that time? Those 6 kung-fu fighters might have had different results in their trip to Thailand.

But, these rooftop fights were all illegal, secret with the respective sifu's top students that studied at least a decade or more.

Take a beginning kung-fu student whose been practicing for 6 months in forms, stances and basic self defense techniques and pit him against a boxer who has done nothing but conditioning, focus mitt work, and regular contact sparring - the kung fu guy doesn't stand a chance.

10 years down the line, I would say maybe the kung-fu fighter has a chance, depending on how he trains; if he gets into competitive san shou, he would win no doubt, but traditional kung fu training I can't say for sure.

Anywho, I'm not trying to diss kung fu because I think it has a lot to offer someone who is looking for good excercise, wisdom, health and some self-defense. I'm saying that traditional kungfu fighting methods take much longer to develop good fighters.

[T-3]

I'm sorry, but in my years of learning Wing Chun I never once heard anyone refer to Bruce Lee as being the Be All End All to Wing Chun. Granted, I'm sure some people do, but amongst others Bruce Lee is just the guy who brought Wing Chun to the Westerners attention and was also a movie star.


Lucky for you, Seismic Anamoly, that Bruce brought Wing Chun to the "westerner's" attention. Now we get to read threads from all the Wing Chun master's of the world. Oh yay! Hey Thai Bri, "keep on rocking in the free world!" I want to learn your "Pulling faces and Sucking My Thumb" self defense. Is there an introductory or sign up fee?

[Seismic Anamoly]

But you have an unfair advantage, as you already have a funny face.

Anyway, I've only recently heard this about Bruce Lee supposedly going back to Yip Man, cap in hand, beging to be taught the "complete" system. Personally I do not believe it, and it can be recorded as one of the many many Wing Chun yarns.

"you already have a funny face"....Ooooh that was a low blow man. But thats ok, I can always have a career as a stand-in for Shrek.

Regarding Bruce Lee's going back to Yip Man. There are several people who were close to Yip Man (not including his sons who I think were the closest to him) that attest to this. But there are also letters Bruce Lee wrote that spoke of his feeling ostracized by the Wing Chun community (mainly yip man's students) to people like Hawkins Cheung (I could be wrong on which person per se, but those letters exist). Interestingly enough, there are also pictures of Yip Man "holding" Brandon Lee (Bruce Lee's) son, that would indicate that Bruce Lee and Yip Man were still close around Brandon Lee's birth. Which would make this "ify" as well. Personally, I see there more evidence of the former to suggest Bruce Lee was denied by Yip Man later-on. Personally, I say "so F#@% what".


-SA

[Seismic Anamoly]

Of course Wing chun is more complete; the art includes elbows, knees and kicks - not to mention spear fingers and palm strikes.

At the time you are talking about (HK circa 1960??), what choices of MA's did you have? wing chun, taiji, choy lay fut and maybe Hung Gar?? There were the famous bare knuckle roof top challenges amongs wc practionters but also between wc and clf. What if traditional muay thai training was available in HK at that time? Those 6 kung-fu fighters might have had different results in their trip to Thailand.

But, these rooftop fights were all illegal, secret with the respective sifu's top students that studied at least a decade or more.

Take a beginning kung-fu student whose been practicing for 6 months in forms, stances and basic self defense techniques and pit him against a boxer who has done nothing but conditioning, focus mitt work, and regular contact sparring - the kung fu guy doesn't stand a chance.

10 years down the line, I would say maybe the kung-fu fighter has a chance, depending on how he trains; if he gets into competitive san shou, he would win no doubt, but traditional kung fu training I can't say for sure.

Anywho, I'm not trying to diss kung fu because I think it has a lot to offer someone who is looking for good excercise, wisdom, health and some self-defense. I'm saying that traditional kungfu fighting methods take much longer to develop good fighters.

I agree 100%. Supposedly, there exists some newly restored video (probably low MM grade) footage of some of these fights. I did see a store online offering them, but I was skeptical on whether I wanted to dish out that cash for it. I would like to see it for shits-and-giggles (probably more giggles than shit).


-SA

[Tom Yum]

There's a thread posted somewhere in the Chinese MA section showing a Hung Gar and Xing Yi masters square off on black & white film (I think it was those styles).

The fighting is terrible. You see some long fist techniques, but a lot of wasted motion in the upperbody and inefficient mobility & stances. Someone with a solid jab/cross and decent footwork would have KOd these guys within 5 minutes.

I try to keep an open mind about these things - something to consider also, that the average Chinaman circa 1940 or 1950, wasn't very large, athletic and not a sophisticated fighter, so fancy techniques may have been excellent at fending off bandits or crazies.

An episode of America's Most Wanted showed that the composite criminal from 1,000's of records says that the average career criminal is 5'8 - 5'11 and weighs 180 to 205 pounds. Some of these guys are avid lifters and are violent offenders. This is what you potentially face on the street.

If you can't atleast stagger a guy this size while doing contact free sparring or rock him hard during pad drills, then no matter how many chi sao drills or technique sets you do, you're not adequately training for self-defense. Like Geoff Thompson says, you've got to learn to hit f@ckin' hard.

On the flip side, there are some very skilled Chinese/Korean MAists who are very viscious fighters, but they don't own schools and keep themselves rather low-key; its too bad that these guys don't normally take up students and train them intensely. I'm not talking mystical, magical stuff - I'm talking about people who have served in military functions as either mercenaries or performed security for officials.

[Seismic Anamoly]

There is terrible fighting everywhere. Short-end of it is, it all depends on how you train (a point you eluded to in your post). Wong Shung Leung was good for implementing this idea of fighting like your life depended on it. Treating a fight like actual warfare (Before he trained at Wing Chun he mopped the floor with several of Yip Man's students with only his boxing skills. Until he took on Yip Man himself).

I agree with you on the whole good fighters-who-will-teach are hard to find. But that isn't always necessarily what will determine the outcome. It doesnt matter what style or instructor a person trains under if they take their training lightly. The students should train like their life depended on it whether the instructor encourages it or not. The arabs have a saying, "An army of lambs led by a lion is more dangerous than an army of lions led by a lamb". If someone trains for "shits & giggles" they may have a hard time against someone who trains for a real situation.


Ok now I think I've deviated too far from the original topic "Mixing Wing Chun with Boxing" . Awwww too hell with it all!



-SA

[krys]

On the flip side, there are some very skilled Chinese/Korean MAists who are very viscious fighters, but they don't own schools and keep themselves rather low-key; its too bad that these guys don't normally take up students and train them intensely. I'm not talking mystical, magical stuff - I'm talking about people who have served in military functions as either mercenaries or performed security for officials.

Some take on rare occasions students... you may need very good understanding of the local culture and language, and a lot of motivation to learn under them.....

[Tom Yum]

and a lot of motivation to learn under them.....

Yi mu
shi hang...

I know what you mean.

[Tom Yum]

Before he trained at Wing Chun he mopped the floor with several of Yip Man's students with only his boxing skills. Until he took on Yip Man himself.

Ok now I think I've deviated too far from the original topic "Mixing Wing Chun with Boxing" . Awwww too hell with it all!

-SA

Great analogy on skilled boxers vs most MA-ists. You pretty much have to be a serious master MA ist to fight off professional boxers at stand up.

Back to the topic, I think wingchun mixed with boxing would be like Lee's JKD.

[IPON]

The boxing circuit was running huge in Hong Kong in the 50's.

If I am correct it is in boxing that Lee first got beaten and never went back (to actually fight). he could not take failure or the thought of loosing...too much ego.

Footnote to that was that he later asked Ip Man to teach him the rest of the system (and of course was denied).

Yes, this is my understanding as well. I have heard a few stories but all with the same ending he was denied. One was when he started to formulate JKD and he showed "the old man" how good his sysytem was and he was essentially throw on his ass. But he did practice the first form everyday.

My 2 cents