Wing Chun or Shaolin?

[sherwinc]

the answer.....

Wich system goes best with WC?

maybe NgoChoKun kungfu, or Tai Chi Chuan but it depends upon a kungfu practitioner if which of them trained well.

The levels of the KungFu Systems or Styles:

1. The first level is in the category of the ANIMAL KungFu. Particularly the Shaolin Martial Arts as popular to these Animal Category. Shaolin Long Fist, Tiger Style, Snake Style, AngKa Systems, Southern Eagle Cla, etc.

2. The Second level is the Taoist INTERNAL SYSTEMS like those of Tai Chi, Pa Kua, Hsing-I. Maybe Chin-Na.

3. The third level is the combination of Soft and Hard systems like those of Five Animals KungFu systems, the NgoChoKun(Five Ancestors Fist KungFu), etc.

4. The fourth and the last level is the Scientific Level like those of ChiDianBun KungFu, WingChun KungFu etc.

Note:
Fourth Level KungFu is the most effective and deadly compare to the First Level of KungFu. From First level up to the Fourth level of KungFu they are a total of 400 kungfu styles and systems invented since the old times.

But all of it depends upon the knowledge of the practitioner who knows how to apply that Martial arts as to his advantage and if he mastered his art as well as all of its application and highlights and art specialties.

[begins]

whew...

i read just about all of this thread...well, minus some of sherwinc's tantrum "science" speeches... theres only so much one can intake right?

ummm, i just wanted to try and figure out a few things... see what some people (thai bri or sherwinc...lol) could say.

Thai boxing i have noticed gets alot of good hype, i know a few of them myself, and while alot of people say "wing chun guys are so cocky" ... so are thi boxers (at leaste in my pov). but alot of what thai boxing revolves around is training, its like boxing in many ways, since it is in reality a competition sport, alot of the elements are developed for such a thing. In my experience (while very little, yet still vast enough to comprehend this) a real fight is different in many ways then a competition... enviroment being a major one... state of mind at the time and so on...

so.... what im getting to is, while you all can go back and forth about which system is better, which is more complete... in reality no system is even close to a completion... how can it be when each one is based on a different aspect... this includes both thai boxing and wing chun.

now, on the other hand, since thai boxers are in such training, i would often put my money on a thai boxer when it comes down to a street fight against some north american wing chun practitioner... both at a low level ( lets say..oh... a year in) because alot of wing chun is technique... there is no hard training like thai boxing... and if one ssays there is... its not like that of a thai boxer...

this i see, i understand... it makes perfect sense... and i theory, yes, the centre line does work well... but alot of people who practice wing chun loose the ideas in the heat of combat, they stick out their chin, the attacks arent properly focus...why?? because less alot fo times is better...

my main beef with all of this is strategy, a bar fight is clumsy, there is so much you can avoid, but since you are in the heat of the moment, you end up just punching eachother... ive seen trained wing chun students just go at it... no strategy...and then... if one person was a thai boxer...and the other a wing chun student... i see the thai winning.. easily...

now my other thing is... when a student knows strategy... itsa different idea... thai bri, ive read other places that you took wing chun for a year... so you can, i imagine, agree that the centre line theory is on paper a very interesting, apporachable, understanding idea... and through it, if one has the understanding, can manipulate the fight in amny ways...

my favourite example of this is a sifu i know has a student, about 29, who embodied this stratedgy component.. he was invited to a standard nationals tournament, but no1 would fight him, either thinking he looks unexceptable or doesnt fit the fights he entered (hes about 5 9', 130, bruce lee like muscle build) after some time he finally fought, and won... again fought... and won... and so on, his stratedgy was amazing...

but then again... he faught with more then just a wing chun style

my point is... thai boxing does have faults... one being that pinned against a fighter who has certain abilities... atributes...stratedgies... they can loose...

thai boxer...wing chun practitioner... akido, ju jitsu... they all have faults..nothing is perfect... NOTHING...

so this whole arguement is.... in my view...pointless... but i took the time anyways to take 10 minutes and type all fo this out....

please feel free to comment

merry christmas

peace

[Thai Bri]

Good post. I am not particularly a champion of Thai Boxing, despite my name. BJJ can nullify most of it anyway.

I am just an antifan of TMAs that train easy but claim all kinds of super powers.....and then use their theories to "prove" their effectiveness.

I think that elements of both styles can be great additions to your overall armoury but, one against one, Thai is far simpler, more brutal, more mobile and more effective than WC. And, as the icing on the cake, they don't make silly claims, and do their talking in a full contact fight.

[Thai Bri]

ps - I'vre only just realised...Tameo started hte thread not knowing much about WC, but has then suddenly become an expert, champoning it over Thai Boxing! Haw haw haw...

WHAT A WANKER!

[begins]

I am just an antifan of TMAs that train easy but claim all kinds of super powers.....and then use their theories to "prove" their effectiveness.

I think that elements of both styles can be great additions to your overall armoury but, one against one, Thai is far simpler, more brutal, more mobile and more effective than WC. And, as the icing on the cake, they don't make silly claims, and do their talking in a full contact fight.

yes, i like the way you worded that, thai is much more brutal, and since alot of the people who would fight against eachother using wing chun and thai boxing are lower in the umm the "totem pole" lol, its clear who would win.

training i think is a big part of it, i myself am a student of wing chun right now up here in canada, before it alot of guys and i would get together and fight for fun, taking our hate out on eachother... and going into wing chun i see alot of great principals... but the biggest beef is what you said... the sparing isnt like that of a thai boxer... or a western boxer for the matter. gloves, shin gaurds, helmets... of course the students can fight or do chi sao with this stuff on... but with the impact of a real fist to the face... most of the theory is out the window... and there goes any chance of using tan da...pak da... all of that is gone and its fist for fist... then the training comes in... and the boxer has the advantage... no matter the "iron palm" or wooden dummy time one gets...

the claims are understandible to a point... but with alot of these guys who use bias answers to prove how wing chun is so effective... its a failing attempt to even try and tell them why it wont work, their mind is so set in all the theory. in how one wing chun punch can break a thai boxers forearm when in reality, they have never even used this practice in real life.

real life is so different then any sort of training, i myself love the theory behind the centre line, it makes sense, and wing chun is suposed to be a street fight art and it can be if the way it is taught was different. yet in reality it comes down to being a paper ruled "i told you so" stigma.

anyway, tameo, i can see your interest in wing chun... and by all means please learn it... when compared to that shaolin stuff, it is a better example of a martial art... it can be used in a real situation... just dont go around saying it can be

peace


p.s. lol, i know what your saying thai bri, reading your posts i see what you mean, and you are correct... the armory can use both thai boxing and wing chun... but one against the other ouch...lol

[tai-gip]

anyone disagree it comes down to the individual and how hard they train or how much effort they put in .....

everstyle has some merrit ...except for bjj hate that useless crap # :-)

ive tried several different arts and messed with a few instructors and realy it comes down to individual relfexes timing speed and personal technique or proficency not the style itself

ive easly walked the floor with a richard norton karate instructor ...to then have one of his students hand me my nuts..

ive gone through whole classes of taekwondo students with just a straight punch as a weapon (dont most styles have a straight punch)


even though i was most proficent in wing chun/kickboxing ive beat karate instructors only using karate

ive trained in a karate class taught by an ex israley paratrooper that had similar blocks and strikes to wing chun ...

my first wing chun instructor was also a qualified taekwondo and kickboxing instructor who realy combined the very well so if he was to kick you arse wich style do you attribute your loss to ..or is it just the man...because he trained more wanted it more hell had more natural talent or the cop out i could have beat him but he does a better style ?

# ps the remark about bjj was just to get thai bri heated

[begins]

my first wing chun instructor was also a qualified taekwondo and kickboxing instructor who realy combined the very well so if he was to kick you arse wich style do you attribute your loss to

lol, interesting that you say that tai, the sifu i train with right now was a taekwondo and thai boxing student back in china china before he trained in wing chun, so all of his teachings are counter acting those two, as he finds, in his style objectives, wing chun a more vital one and able, with the inner fighting capabilities, more key...

i agree with the idea that it really comes down to the training and student + teacher relationship... thats why i disagree with the military-like training systems taekwondo and others use. I beleive respect is needed, but not going to those types of levels. Friendship and trust should also play a role, as it builds a better understanding of what you are doing. ive known many students who do what the teacher says, but not knowng why or how it is effective in a real situation...

and then of course you get into the discussions of how many dojo's are out for money not passing on the breed... tsk tsk... up here though, where im a student, the sifu rents out a karate dojo to use and all our money given to him goes to the master of the place... but its hard to find places like that... too hard...

n e ways... good points tai

peace

[sherwinc]

Correction.......

whew...

i read just about all of this thread...well, minus some of sherwinc's tantrum "science" speeches... theres only so much one can intake right?

ummm, i just wanted to try and figure out a few things... see what some people (thai bri or sherwinc...lol) could say.

Thai boxing i have noticed gets alot of good hype, i know a few of them myself, and while alot of people say "wing chun guys are so cocky" ... so are thi boxers (at leaste in my pov). but alot of what thai boxing revolves around is training, its like boxing in many ways, since it is in reality a competition sport, alot of the elements are developed for such a thing. In my experience (while very little, yet still vast enough to comprehend this) a real fight is different in many ways then a competition... enviroment being a major one... state of mind at the time and so on...

so.... what im getting to is, while you all can go back and forth about which system is better, which is more complete... in reality no system is even close to a completion... how can it be when each one is based on a different aspect... this includes both thai boxing and wing chun.

now, on the other hand, since thai boxers are in such training, i would often put my money on a thai boxer when it comes down to a street fight against some north american wing chun practitioner... both at a low level ( lets say..oh... a year in) because alot of wing chun is technique... there is no hard training like thai boxing... and if one ssays there is... its not like that of a thai boxer...

this i see, i understand... it makes perfect sense... and i theory, yes, the centre line does work well... but alot of people who practice wing chun loose the ideas in the heat of combat, they stick out their chin, the attacks arent properly focus...why?? because less alot fo times is better...

my main beef with all of this is strategy, a bar fight is clumsy, there is so much you can avoid, but since you are in the heat of the moment, you end up just punching eachother... ive seen trained wing chun students just go at it... no strategy...and then... if one person was a thai boxer...and the other a wing chun student... i see the thai winning.. easily...

now my other thing is... when a student knows strategy... itsa different idea... thai bri, ive read other places that you took wing chun for a year... so you can, i imagine, agree that the centre line theory is on paper a very interesting, apporachable, understanding idea... and through it, if one has the understanding, can manipulate the fight in amny ways...

my favourite example of this is a sifu i know has a student, about 29, who embodied this stratedgy component.. he was invited to a standard nationals tournament, but no1 would fight him, either thinking he looks unexceptable or doesnt fit the fights he entered (hes about 5 9', 130, bruce lee like muscle build) after some time he finally fought, and won... again fought... and won... and so on, his stratedgy was amazing...

but then again... he faught with more then just a wing chun style

my point is... thai boxing does have faults... one being that pinned against a fighter who has certain abilities... atributes...stratedgies... they can loose...

thai boxer...wing chun practitioner... akido, ju jitsu... they all have faults..nothing is perfect... NOTHING...

so this whole arguement is.... in my view...pointless... but i took the time anyways to take 10 minutes and type all fo this out....

please feel free to comment

merry christmas

peace

I did not mean and enforcing only WingChun

What i mean is

at least 2 or 3 KungFu combined to alternate systems learned is much better.

Example:
1. If you learn WingChun KungFu ( short distance / scientific / popular fights ) and Tai Chi Chuan ( all distance / soft / popular fights )

2. If you Learn WingChun KungFu ( short distance / scientific / popular fights ) and AngKa Kun ( medium to long / hard / distance popular fights )

3. if you Learn WingChun KungFu ( short distance / scientific / popular fights ) and GoChoKun KungFu ( short distance / hard-soft / popular fights ) and also with Chi Dian Bun KungFu ( short distance scientific / popular fights )

Note:
All that i mention is all in KungFu category

You could easily bulldoze the Muay Thai's Chest

why?

Muay Thai have a strong Hard Shinbones but a weak forearm and that's all

then....

KungFu (Not only WingChun alone) Iron Body, Cotton Body, Iron forearm, Iron Fist, Iron Head, IRON SHIN BONE, scientific approach, bloody eagle claws, and......

the two most highest level in KungFu is.....

1. Iron Palm (Shaolin Chuan, GoChoKun, WingChun, FiveAnimals, etc....)
2. Poison Hand (Chinna, TaiChiChuan, Northern Fist, Crane Style, etc....)

[begins]

KungFu (Not only WingChun alone) Iron Body, Cotton Body, Iron forearm, Iron Fist, Iron Head, IRON SHIN BONE, scientific approach, bloody eagle claws

while this idea may suit you, i am not much for the strictly kungfu approach... the techniques listed there are very good, and im sure you see them as that, but i find the mixture of different arts much more interesting...

such as studying wing chun and then going into hap ki do or BJJ or Muay Thai, and the iron-(insert noun) does work, but so does learning through actual instances..

but i see your point, using wing chun - a very good and my favourite close combat art, and then combining it with long and medium ranges, so your not ina karate students perdicament -- getting close = clueless

peace

[William Eriepa]

What a load of shit. I've never read so much shit in my life.

Supermen in pyjamas that shoot fireballs from their arse.

Fuckn, what a load of shit!

[begins]

expand wise one...expand

peace

[William Eriepa]

I think it's expanded enough.

[begins]

well then... you keep that up

peace

[Oliver]

Wing Tsun

I practised Wing Tsun som years ago, and at one time we had a new guy joining us who was a Thai boxer.
I knew he was good, because I had personally seen him win several tournaments. In fact, everyone knew he was good. He decided to show my
si hing that he could whoop him with a good Thai kick. Well, let's just say he tried everything and failed.

Whatever he threw, he always ended up on the floor, or with my instructors hand around his neck, or a finger half an inch from his eye.

I'm not saying Muay Thai is bad, on the contrary. An average Thai boxer would probably beat the crap out of most martial artists in the ring, and some of them in the street as well.

The downside of Wing Tsun is the same as for all Chinese boxing styles;
achieving quality Kung Fu skill takes time. A lot of time.

The upside is if you are willing to put in that time and effort, you will be competetive against Thai boxing. Probably not in the ring, but most certainly in the street.
Why?
Because Thai boxing has evolved in to more of a sport, while Wing Tsun has kept its traditional approach.
This means it will arm the skilled practitioner with techniques (like those found in Biu Jee) that most Thai boxers will have a hard time defending against in a real situation.
Why?
Two reasons:
1. They don't pracise using them.
2. They don't practise defending against them.
The reason for this is they don't have to. In a Muay Thai match, if you kick someone in the groin or aim a finger to his eyes or throat, the referee will stop you.

Wing Tsun is not any good for competition, I will give you that.
But it's not bullshit. I know some people who are doormen/policemen practising the art, they ought to be able to judge what works and what doesn't. And they say it's more usable than the jiu-jitsu and kickboxing they did before.

Frankly, I think a comparison to Muay Thai is somewhat difficult. Muay Thai is more of a sport, although good even in the street. Wing Tsun is a martial art.
It's harder to master, yes, but when you do I've seen enough to know it kicks ass in any real situation. And that, after all, is it's purpose.

Just a note: I have read that some of you complain about inadequate power in Wing Tsun chain punches. While this is indeed true unless you are very experienced, please keep in mind that chain punches are not meant to knock the aggressor out. They are meant to disrupt his attack, destroy his balance and open him up. Put short; to confuse the shit out of him. Then you move in with knees, elbows and so on without giving him any time
to recover in between.

Bottom line: Wing Tsun is not as bad as some of you seem to think, but I will admit it takes some time to learn how to use it properly.

[Thai Bri]

I know some people who are doormen/policemen practising the art, they ought to be able to judge what works and what doesn't. And they say it's more usable than the jiu-jitsu and kickboxing they did before.

.

I ifnd this hard to believe. Its yet more "evidence" which is in no way verified.

WC had its chance in the UFC, with no rules and no gloves. The ony guy claiming to be WC weighed in at over 300lbs! So much for suitable for the smaller person! And he didn't win!

And I am a Policeman. Kickboxing (full contact, especially Thai style) eats WC in any arena. I've studied both.