Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[LittleDemon]

ummmmmmm no my friend who does judo is going to train with me to her it will be sparring of course and swap each others knowledge of the martial arts because its cheaper that way and we can both agree to disagree lol also i have a friend who does aikido and someone else whop does muay thai and kickboxing so yeah i get a lot of different ideas from my friends!

[Thai Bri]

Emma - its difficult to say as I have no idea how good either of you are. But if a good Judoka gets close in on just about any mainstream martial artist, then Judo is odds on to win the day. It isn't that different to BJJ, and look what happened before the birth of modern MMA. Most mainstream striking arts (which WC definately is) have no real answer to grappling, beyond the ridiculous and totally unproven "anti grappling" that emerged after the Gracie's handed everyone their rear ends.


John, thanks for the email mate. Actually I think you have good reasons for learning Wing Chun. It IS more intellectually challenging than Thai Boxing and does have more for the brain to think about. Also you enjoy it, so what better reason is there than that?

But my reasons for training revolve around keeping both myself and my loved ones alive if they are under a serious threat from attackers. Luckily I do enjoy my training also, but that is secondary to the main reason. I also love the health and fitness benefits too (which I concede that you can get through WC too).

I was in the Sam Kwok organisation, and my instructors were Dave Carnell and another guy called Kevin. I do not remember his surname. I do accept that this was 20 years ago..... but at that time they were very arrogant men who vastly over rated their own abilities and had a poor attitude to their students. None of whom, by the way, could knock the skin off a rice pudding. They even asked me to open my own club after merely 6 months of training but, of course, they would get the money...... Now tell me that is responsible behaviour?

I could tell by the change in direction that they were getting more into JKD as time went on which is, of course, more testanment to the view that WC is lacking.

For the record, I ge no perverse pleasure from slating martial arts. I think it is tragic that they have been diluted to such appalling levels of effectiveness, and I wish to help newer people avoid wasting the time that I wasted.

ps - No, the passing of time does not enable WC practitioners to beat boxers....... unless you have any actual credible evidence? And corroborated evidence too, not the "secret challenges" variety.

[IPON]

They even asked me to open my own club after merely 6 months of training but, of course, they would get the money...... Now tell me that is responsible behaviour?

I agree and no disrespect, but no one is good enough after 6 moths of training to teach someone else especially starting a school. I think you hit the mark with JKD. If they were getting into JKD at the time it sounds like the marketing strategy "you can be an instructor in less than 6months" just send us a video and give us a % of your business.

[sherwinc]

I agree and no disrespect, nut no one is good enough after 6 moths of training to teach someone else especially starting a school. I think you hit the mark with JKD. If they were getting into JKD at the time it sounds like the marketing strategy "you can be an instructor in less than 6months" just send us a video and give us a % of your business.

6 months of training???????

example:
1. in Snake Style KungFu, you have to spent 240 years ( approximately 3 lives) in order to master that KungFu art.....

2. in WingChun KungFu, 3 years is enough to apply it in combat..... but you have to practice that art lifetime in order to master it......

KungFu is a way of life and a lifetime journey to practice it.......

[IPON]

6 months of training???????

Unfortunately, yes. This is seen in JKD alot. Mail order instructors and this is actually worse than McDojos

[sherwinc]

Unfortunately, yes. This is seen in JKD alot. Mail order instructors and this is actually worse than McDojos

here in our place, in one of the malls of Iloilo City, Philippines...... there are crash course of Tai Chi Chuan in just 2 weeks, Tae Kwon Do in just 2 weeks.

i dont know if there is a certificate or not...... also Ai Ki Do and Penjak Silat

Note:
14 days training in each martial arts styles/systems in a sesion of 2 hours a day

haw haw haw haw

[LittleDemon]

At the end of the day you have martial arts clubs and organisations in it for the money but mostly you have martial arts clubs who's first and foremost concern is the wellbeing of the students and their progress in training, because teaching also helps you gain valuable knowledge of dealing with different people and makes your brain work harder because trying to figure out another students problem with a technique is to me more difficult then if you were yourself having a problem lol

but yah opening clubs after 6 months trouble is just asking for trouble especially if you havent done martial arts before and you only have 6 months under your belt then all kinds of things can go wrong and the worst thing is people then get big headed and think oh yeah im so good i can have my own club after only 6 months training, major problems can occur, injuries and lack of teaching knowledge. How would you stop a possible fight situation in the class with no discipline where students square each other up , you would earn yourself a reputation that could destroy your martial arts career if things went terribly wrong . Now that just pisses me off!

[Thai Bri]

I just luuuuuuuurv it when you get angry.

If only I was 20 years younger........

OK, 25.

[Michael Maison]

God, what a loser.

Some neophyte studies WC for one year and then dabbles in a bunch of other styles. What is obvious is that he has become a kindergartner in several schools, and a master of nothing.

What pity.....because he has rigid vertical stances, he thinks everybody moves like that. I know WC sifu's who DANCE around boxers.....

Who listens to you.......your a kindergartner????????

You patronising twat. I have oopened my mind. Thats why I studied Wing Chun for a year. It was after that time that I opined that it hadn't got enough effective training methods to make it wirth my while. I have studied Karate, different forms of Jiu Jitsu, Thai Boxing, JKD, Wing Chin, Taiho Ryu Jitsu, Combatives and other reality based sysems. You talk in theory. I talk from practice.

There is no way the rigid vertical stances of the WC could cope with the fluid and powerful two handed onslaught from a Weestern boxer. WC trains to defend against WC. That is only one of their fundamental training weaknesses.

WC is one of those arts that wins "secret" competitions. Big claims with no verification. Boxers do it for real.

And whats this about "all seven" of your weapons? If you're talking the parts of our body you can strike with, then there is a few more than seven. Yes, boxers only train the two, and the system has inherent weaknesses because of it. But they are not weaknesses that patta-cake play boys can exploit.

Take you WC into any boxing gym, and tell the instructor how you'd easily defeat his fighters with your WC. But phone an ambulance first, as within the first 2 minutes you'll probably need one.

[jubaji]

What pity.....because he has rigid vertical stances, he thinks everybody moves like that. I know WC sifu's who DANCE around boxers.....

Are they, y'know, 'special' WC sifu's?

[Thai Bri]

Thanks Michael.

You're right of course. It takes far longer than 1 year to make Wing Chun work. But is that because it is some fantastic, mysterious art that will give you super human power of you devote your life to it.......... or is it just inefficient?

Personally I believe the latter. Try WW2 Combatives for example. You will become a more effective fighter after 1 lesson, never mind 1 year!

I learned enough to know that it was wasting my time. A year is a long time. I trained a whole shit load of hours outside of class time too, and it was bollox.

By the way, I really hate to doubt your word about the Dancing Sifu's. Why not put me straight by giving us all one piece of actual evidence to prove your point. Or are you just as full of shit as the style?

Thanks mate!

[Tom Yum]

I think wing chun could be a usefull style. Most people on the street aren't trained martial artists, so you have somewhat of an advantage.

The low, fast snap kicks aimed seem usefull as do the palm, thrusting fingers and elbow techniques. Wingchun has something to offer in terms of empty hand techniques without gloves - parrying, trapping and different types of hand strikes.

The problem might lie in the particular schools cirriculum; if all you do is practice forms and sticky hands, your not really using wing chun for fight training.

Why won't wingchun guys train with fighters from other styles, using wing chun? If your partner is throwing vertical fist straight punches at you all the time, how will your defense hold up against someone throwing harder punches? or Punch combinations?

other fighters and martial artists don't stop striking if one of their techniques is blocked or missed and its not like they throw one technique, stop, then throw another unless they are trying to set you up.

With the advent of MMA gloves and those new plastic face shields, WC guys should be sparring full contact!

[guy incognito]

I think the problem with Wing chun is the amount of charlatans in the style. I think the problem is compounded by the fact that the genuine practisioners hold back so much from their students for fear of them branching off(How many people claim to teach the "real wing chun"?)
. The more that gets held back the worse the art becomes and before you know it everyone is claiming theirs is the genuine article and that they have a
better system than the other brand of WC. This branding of WC has led to its decline by everyone claiming to teach the true art. Constant
bickering between factions has resulted in a of a lack of credability of the sytle as a whole.

[kcigam]

I've studied WingTsun and trained with students of Wing Chun and there are subtle differences, like

weight distribution when turning (WC: centre of balance doesn't move, WT: centre of balance shifts with the turn) and

the application of force in some techniques (e.g. WC: tan sau is more of a block, WT: tan sau is more along the centreline and both a deflection and an offensive move simultaneously, although i've seen modified WC styles where this is also true)..

there are other differences but the roots and many techniques are basically the same

[kcigam]

The problem might lie in the particular schools cirriculum; if all you do is practice forms and sticky hands, your not really using wing chun for fight training.

That's true, but at the beginning levels you have to practise the forms to get your body used to the movements... wing tsun's strikes and movements are very different from most martial arts, like where the power of the strikes come from and how the weight is distributed when moving.

Sticky hands only comes at higher levels and by then, you've been through a good deal of lat sau (sparring) and should be able to handle a number of fight situations using wing tsun moves, so sticky hands is more of an extension of the training for real life (to develop sensitivity and reflexes); it is not in and of itself a self-defense method.

If your partner is throwing vertical fist straight punches at you all the time, how will your defense hold up against someone throwing harder punches? or Punch combinations?

If it's one thing you're trained for in wing tsun (in a good school anyway) it's handling variation. Most training involves combinations and both strong and soft punches. Its only at the beginning levels that you're taught "handle this with this" and that very quickly changes once the student's body has become accustomed to wing tsun's way of movement.

other fighters and martial artists don't stop striking if one of their techniques is blocked or missed and its not like they throw one technique, stop, then throw another unless they are trying to set you up.

That's true too, and that's why wing tsun's ideology is the way that it is. One of it's principles is not to wait for the attack to come so you're not waiting to react to your opponents attacks only to get hit when you make a bad call. And sticky hands trains you to react properly and quickly to them as they come, and attack at the same time. If you've ever sparred with a good wt practitioner, you know that it's a very frustrating thing because you're constantly on the defense.

I don't think that wt techniques will defend against every attacker, because the better-skilled fighter will most likely win, but when it comes to the situations described above, wt pretty much deals with all of those things at the fundamental level.