Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[Rickster]

Some confrontations cannot be avoided, or shouldn't be avoided.
There are people in this world, who are just nasty scroats, who only come down to earth when they get a slap.

I have known many people who were attacked by druggies, drunk guys or just vicious b*stards, for no reason at all and there are no ways of getting out of it.

I think entering a fight is a very mature decision especially if you are fighting for the right reasons. If you go around looking for a fight then yes you deserve to be pummelled. But backing away when someone is in your face is just ridiculous. That is how tyrants have come to rule the world - because no-one stood up to them.

Yes, depending on where you are and the scoail order,conforntations cannot be avoided.

And-I did state-

HOWEVER-I do have to state one should learn many physical applications to be well-rounded and preapared.

[Red Rum]

Yep.

Including all the genuine Instructors. Because Wing Chun does not have all these things in it's original form.

Exactly. A lot of people argue that Chi Na (supposedly part of wing chun) is better than BJJ and that a wing chunner is safe in a grapple, which doesn't really help its credibility

Wing Chun does not have grappling. You can use wing chun to grapple (ie the sensitivity aspects allows it easier to feel when people are going to move position etc), but trying to grapple using wing chun moves is ludicrous!!!

In Kamon, Master Chan saw the hole in wing chun and immediately started training in BJJ under the Gracies

[Thai Bri]

And he certainly has my respect for doing that.

[tjwingchun]

Bit of a shock to get an email about this forum as I tend to banter with the nuggets in Bullshido and insidekungfumagazine forums since I got back on line, even more of a suprise to see that you are still around Thai Bri, thought you would have been permanently erased by now, lol.

I am now firmly esconced in Colonia de Sant Jordi, Majorca and have the bar up and running, have to wait for the house to be finished to get the gym started for training holidays and teaching again, cannot wait to start happy slapping once more, lol.

As far as the grappling argument goes it has been part of my training for a long time as I view it as simply an extension of Chi Sau and has always been in my Wing Chun.

[Red Rum]

As far as the grappling argument goes it has been part of my training for a long time as I view it as simply an extension of Chi Sau and has always been in my Wing Chun.

Okay, before people (Thai Bri) start ripping this guy apart. Can I just ask the guy how his wing chun holds up when he has gone against wrestlers, BJJ guys etc?

I have found that chi sao helps in other martial arts but you cannot specifically rely on it to chi sao someone into submission - that is just daft.

Kevin Chan is one of the best guys I have touched hands with and he doesn't use chi sao to submit a guy!!!

I just wish people would get out of this ridiculous idea that you can wing chun someone in a Muay Thai fight under MT rules, or wing chun someone into grappling.

Wing chun is a striking, close quarter art. If you want to do a sport, go and train in a sport based art. If you want to grapple, go and train in a grappling art. You never hear a Muay Thai guy saying that they are going to use their clinching to chi sao someone

Okay Thai Bri.. Your turn...

[Red Rum]

As far as the grappling argument goes it has been part of my training for a long time as I view it as simply an extension of Chi Sau and has always been in my Wing Chun.

Okay, before people (Thai Bri) start ripping this guy apart. Can I just ask the guy how his wing chun holds up when he has gone against wrestlers, BJJ guys etc?

I have found that chi sao helps in other martial arts but you cannot specifically rely on it to chi sao someone into submission - that is just daft.

Kevin Chan is one of the best guys I have touched hands with and he doesn't use chi sao to submit a guy!!!

I just wish people would get out of this ridiculous idea that you can wing chun someone in a Muay Thai fight under MT rules, or wing chun someone into grappling.

Wing chun is a striking, close quarter art. If you want to do a sport, go and train in a sport based art. If you want to grapple, go and train in a grappling art. You never hear a Muay Thai guy saying that they are going to use their clinching to chi sao someone

Okay Thai Bri.. He's all yours....

[tjwingchun]

Okay, before people (Thai Bri) start ripping this guy apart. Can I just ask the guy how his wing chun holds up when he has gone against wrestlers, BJJ guys etc?

I have found that chi sao helps in other martial arts but you cannot specifically rely on it to chi sao someone into submission - that is just daft.

Kevin Chan is one of the best guys I have touched hands with and he doesn't use chi sao to submit a guy!!!

I just wish people would get out of this ridiculous idea that you can wing chun someone in a Muay Thai fight under MT rules, or wing chun someone into grappling.

Wing chun is a striking, close quarter art. If you want to do a sport, go and train in a sport based art. If you want to grapple, go and train in a grappling art. You never hear a Muay Thai guy saying that they are going to use their clinching to chi sao someone

Okay Thai Bri.. He's all yours....

Thai Bri knows me already!!!

My most recent experience is with one of my students who had 13 years experience in Ju Jitsu, not the fancy Brazilian stuff, he is from Carlisle and it is "you chatting my sheep up" land, lol.

My Wing Chun held up against him so well that he has been with me now for over 4 years and he is not just a Ju Jitsu black belt and fighter but also a streetfighter, not that he is proud of it, but Carlisle can be a bit of a rough night out and Mike was involved in real fights most weekends.

I never said I used chi sau to submit people, but getting into a choke position is just an extension of chi sau, I don't use strikes in chi sau, I use it to control elbows so that my opponent does not have a line of attack open to hit me, while I manipulate them so I have an opportunity of a clear strike.

My Wing Chun is about me knowing how my body mechanics can be used in violent confrontations, if I was going to go into Muay Thai I would have to understand and fight by their rules and if you play in someone elses garden you lose!

Why would I want to grapple anyway? Rolling on the floor getting hot and sweaty with half naked men, some in lycra shorts and covered in baby oil is not my idea of fun.

My opinion of sports fighting is that the ultimate is boxing, simply for one reason, if you are any good you can make money out of your skill, I have students who have gone into NHB fighting and that is their personal choice and I helped them develop for that specific environment, but fighting to make money for promoters to me does not make sense, if you are going to risk the brain damage you should at least be getting paid decent money.

[Red Rum]

My Wing Chun held up against him so well that he has been with me now for over 4 years and he is not just a Ju Jitsu black belt and fighter but also a streetfighter, not that he is proud of it, but Carlisle can be a bit of a rough night out and Mike was involved in real fights most weekends..

honest answer to an honest question, but one of our instructors is a jujitsu guy (Japenese style) and his grappling isn't really that good, so i'm not convinced by your argument here. Haven't you gone down to BJJ gym and tried it out? One guy, no matter how tough he is cannot convince you that grappkling is part of wing chun surely?

I never said I used chi sau to submit people, but getting into a choke position is just an extension of chi sau, I don't use strikes in chi sau, I use it to control elbows so that my opponent does not have a line of attack open to hit me, while I manipulate them so I have an opportunity of a clear strike..

I understand what you are saying - you can get someone in a choke during chi sao. But you wouldn't go up to someone in a fight and chi sao them!!

Why would I want to grapple anyway? Rolling on the floor getting hot and sweaty with half naked men, some in lycra shorts and covered in baby oil is not my idea of fun..

I agree with you. Each to their own. But if you want to talk about grappling I would advise that you do some. I once thought like you until I did Judo/BJJ and then realised that you can't wing chun someone into a grapple

[tjwingchun]

honest answer to an honest question, but one of our instructors is a jujitsu guy (Japenese style) and his grappling isn't really that good, so i'm not convinced by your argument here. Haven't you gone down to BJJ gym and tried it out? One guy, no matter how tough he is cannot convince you that grappkling is part of wing chun surely?

The student who does NHB is a blue belt in BJJ and we ran a gym together, me doing Wing Chun him his MMA/NHB training, we worked on many things and aspects of competitive fighting, from initiating contact to all the various ranges of fighting and finishing strikes. He now trains with Alan Orr as he has the full set up and style customised to MMA/NHB competitions.

I understand what you are saying - you can get someone in a choke during chi sao. But you wouldn't go up to someone in a fight and chi sao them!!

Chi Sau is not for fighting, simply a training tool, it should only come into effect if your inital attacks have been blocked and therefore you have contact with both of your opponents arms.

I agree with you. Each to their own. But if you want to talk about grappling I would advise that you do some. I once thought like you until I did Judo/BJJ and then realised that you can't wing chun someone into a grapple

I talk about fighting and done enough of that in my past to justify to me that my Wing Chun is effective in any situation, it can never guarantee that you will always win as that depends on too many parameters that reality teaches you.

In the 24 years I have been teaching professionally I have had to deal with people of most styles as well as streetfighters who have wanted to test whether I knew what I was talking about, and both theoretically and practically I have always been able to do both.

I respect all martial arts and competitive fighters, I do not say that Wing Chun is the only way to fight, or that my Wing Chun is the best, what I do say is that it is the only way for me. It has been the method I have used to understand how to utilise all the different muscle groups to generate energies in my body and how to bring them together to be effective when in violent confrontations.

The bottom line of my way of teaching is "getting others to understand themselves the way I understand myself in fighting scenarios".

In my mind that is all that Wing Chun is, simple body mechanics related to violence.

[Thai Bri]

I give up with TJwingchun - he's too old to change!

Great to see WC guys falling out though!

[tjwingchun]

Listen who is talking about age lol, the only reason you follow MMA thinking is because you cannot remember what you were doing yesterday lmao, anyway who is falling out?

Just doing my usual justification of what I have been doing for the last 24 years and answering questions when asked.

So what have you been up to recently anything exciting?

[Thai Bri]

Hitting things and kicking things. Same old same old.

[tjwingchun]

I was on about your martial arts not your job Thai Bri lol

[Thai Bri]

Why do you think I joined?

[tjwingchun]

Why do you think I joined?

Because you like the feel of something long, black and hard in your hand.

Of course then there is the truncheon as well!!