Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[Hot Sauce]

Well Wing Tsun is associated with Latosa escrima........

Ohh Sorry that line was for Thai Bri

I practice WC and never saw this taugh in classes..... but WT teaches some kind of ground grapling and the (in)famous "antigrapling" techniques.... I may be wrong but I have serious doubt this was taught by Yp Man.

I don't remember which linage that adopts the kickboxing "jumping", I didn't mean all.

Mass learning or mass earning? You may not take the grades but will you learn everything then?

YOu can still follow the syllabus without taking grades.

Well I would be more than happy if my WC would allow me to defeat old shaolin monks ....

Hehe Beware, the shaolin monks are evil.

[Thai Bri]

Thai Bri, don't be such a fascist!
This 'patta cake' idea of yours just shows how little you know about Wing Chun.
I assume your referring to Chi Sau, and I agree that if anyone goes into a fight expecting to link arms and play Chi Sau they will get battered. But Chi Sau is NOT sparring, and anyone who sees it as sparring (ie. you) has completely missed the point. It's just an exercise, and a very useful one at that. Besides, what advantages does a boxing have over Wing Chun? If both were of equal skill in their respective art, the Wing Chun exponent would either end the fight by kicking the guys knees out, or trapping his hands. Boxers only train one or two of their weapons, Gung Fu trains all seven.
And as for the grappler, an accomplished Wing Chun exponent is very hard to take to the ground, once they've mastered their footwork and redirecting incoming energy, but then again, if the grappler's really fast, maybe he'll go down. It all depends on the person.
You can't just put styles into pidgeon holes. Stop being so naive Thai Bri, closing your mind is one of the best ways to stunt your growth as a person, let alone a martial artist....

You patronising twat. I have oopened my mind. Thats why I studied Wing Chun for a year. It was after that time that I opined that it hadn't got enough effective training methods to make it wirth my while. I have studied Karate, different forms of Jiu Jitsu, Thai Boxing, JKD, Wing Chin, Taiho Ryu Jitsu, Combatives and other reality based sysems. You talk in theory. I talk from practice.

There is no way the rigid vertical stances of the WC could cope with the fluid and powerful two handed onslaught from a Weestern boxer. WC trains to defend against WC. That is only one of their fundamental training weaknesses.

WC is one of those arts that wins "secret" competitions. Big claims with no verification. Boxers do it for real.

And whats this about "all seven" of your weapons? If you're talking the parts of our body you can strike with, then there is a few more than seven. Yes, boxers only train the two, and the system has inherent weaknesses because of it. But they are not weaknesses that patta-cake play boys can exploit.

Take you WC into any boxing gym, and tell the instructor how you'd easily defeat his fighters with your WC. But phone an ambulance first, as within the first 2 minutes you'll probably need one.

[RuskiRonin]

Thai Bri there's no need for your stupid remarks in every thread about WingChun. Your one year in WingChun means shit, you think you know everything from one lousy year of training in WingChun, the truth is wingchun is hard mentally and not everyone can keep going hard without quitting. Its an extremely good and verastile martial art. Now to the actuall thread, from my understanding VingTzun is Leung Ting's "Modern" and "Self-Defense" commercialized version of WingChun which also includes belts and ranks. Im assuming they are much harder then other WingChun because theyr trying to appeal to a bigger public ( with all this advertising...) But im just guessing. I know they distribute their weight on both feet when rotating, unlike the original WingChun which keeps one leg free.

[Hot Sauce]

According to Leung Ting WingTsun is soft. Although there are different interpretations made by his students in the organisation and outside. Like Emin Boztepe's EBMAS

[Jun Fan]

First of all, I never said I could easily defeat a boxer. I have no illusions about stepping into a boxing ring and beating a good boxer under their own rules. I'd have to be something very special, and I won't pretend I am. But do you honestly believe that under a no rules situation I couldn't exploit his knees with my feet?
As for the 'rigid' Wing Chun stance used in form training, anyone who thinks this is how you should stand while fighting deserves to get battered. It's simply a way to train your base without the wide classical stances, but it's not for combat. I'm sorry if in your entire ONE YEAR of Wing Chun your were taught this way, but maybe it was divine intervention designed to piss you off.
Another thing, please don't assume that I'm speaking 'in theory'.
I've had some friendly exchanges with boxers, and sparred with Thai boxers and Jujitsu exponents, and have found Wing Chun to be pretty effective, and I've even managed to pull off some of the textbook trapping.
Sorry Thai if this too seems patronising, but I try to be consistent....

[Thai Bri]

Thai Bri there's no need for your stupid remarks in every thread about WingChun. Your one year in WingChun means shit, you think you know everything from one lousy year of training in WingChun, the truth is wingchun is hard mentally and not everyone can keep going hard without quitting. Its an extremely good and verastile martial art.

Another misconception about what makes a "good" martial art - the idea that it must take a long time to become effective.

Of course, the opposite is true. The better the fighting art, the SHORTER time it takes to become effective. The opposite view is put forward by idiots, or charlatans who happily relieve you of your money for many a year.

One "lousy" year of training in Muay Thai, or BJJ, or Combatives would make you a formidable fighter indeed. Ten lousy years in Wing Chun won't.


Jun Fan - I accept what you say about rules. Without them the whole fight becomes a different ball game. But knees aren't that easy to kick. How many knee kicks were effective in early UFC's? None.

WC has a multitude of techniques. yet another misconception.....the more techniques, the better the art. Wrong again. The fewer techniques (as long as it has a broad application), the BETTER the art. Boxers have only three basic punches (straight, hook and uppercut). There are may different ways to apply these though. And, because they only have three techniques, they bvecome very expert with them. The more techniques you have to learn, the less effective at each technique you become.

[Jun Fan]

I agree with entirely regarding a styles ability to promote competence quickly and the importance of few techniques.
However, I completely disagree that these factors apply to Wing Chun.

My instructor always says that Wing Chun can be effectively after a short period of study, and I have to say I agree. One of our new students managed to avoid a nasty beating from a bouncer by using basic parries after only 3 months training. I managed to put a basic arm bar on a drunken friend who got out or order. Coincidently, this was mainly due to the 'patta cake' training. In only 6 months I managed to react without any thought, and to be honest it kinda freaked me out.

Also, Wing Chun doesn't have a multitude of techniques. All the forms use basically the same techniques, just slightly different ways of executing them.
Self-defence wise, we learn at most 2 techniques for each situation.
Again, this is only my experience, and I'm sure that there are countless Wing Chun charlatans teaching bollocks, but luckily my Sifu is the real thing (Sifu Sam Kwok, 35 years training, taught my Yip Ching and Yip Chun).

[Thai Bri]

Guess who's organisation I trained in.

[Jun Fan]

Well unfortunately Sam Kwok is not an omnipresent super being. He doesn't have the ability to regulate all his intructors like dogs
There's so much political bollox in Wing Chun, and so many offshoots, that some are crap some are good, but ultimately it depends on the quality of the intructor.
Don't judge a system or organisation from a few bad experiences....

[Thai Bri]

He doesn't regulate his instructors? That is bad. Very bad........ That is shirking his responsibilities, and throwing his own professional reputation to the wind.

I had bad experiences in Wing Chun. I went to three different clubs, and found the same weaknesses in each. They were all under Sifu Kwok's umberella.

I was graded by Sifu Kwok. I jumped two grades at once at the first attempt. I was then asked (though, admittedly, not by him - but his instructors) to become an instructor. I'd been training about 4 months at this point. Pathetic.

I gave it more time. I even admit that there were concepts (like the redirecting of energy, rather than meeting it head on) that were of use. But this was all limited.

To my mind a good MMA or Reality Based fighter could use some WC to compliment his existing skills. But there is no way that it is a complete system on its own. It would be like trying to drive the shell of a car. But, of course, you also need a chassis, wheels and an engine. WC provided none of these.

You like it? You stick with it. I am happy for you. But all kinds of people read these forums, and my experiences are also going in the mix for them to decide which art they want to spend their time and hard earned money on.

[Hot Sauce]

Thai Bri
So you think you have the right to judge a whole style because you visisted three clubs from one of the many wing chun linages?

[Thai Bri]

Yes I do. After all, like the man said, its' lineage can be traced back to Yip Man himself.

[Jun Fan]

Well judging from what you told me, I'm not surprised you don't see much in Wing Chun. And I didn't mean that he can't regulate his intructors, (poor choice of wording on my part) I just mean that he can't randomly appear at their side if they're teaching below standard. I'll admit that Sifu is an unusual instructor himself, and some may hate his methods, but I'm not one of them.
All I'll say is that my experience has been of a realistic and practical system of self defence. If you don't then that's up to you, and I completely respect that. That's not fight anymore eh? Gimme a hug!

[Hot Sauce]

Yes I do. After all, like the man said, its' lineage can be traced back to Yip Man himself.

Well you are wrong then because all linages are different and there are other linages that doesn't come form Yip Man's Hong Kong Ving Tsun. Therefore you can't judge a whole style from one linage. And besides Yip Man had many students, and you can't expect that all of them completely understood the WC concepts.

[Thai Bri]

Hot Sauce, I think you sound pretty desperate. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt for a minue, can you show me any verifiable evidence whatsoever that your WC or WT can save my ass in a fight? If you can I will eat my words and join the club.

Jun Fan - sorry man. I didn't want to name names. I have nothing against Kwok. I did think him a bit odd but nowhere near as odd as me. Some of those instructors were real nice guys. Though the first two I trained with were a prize pair of pricks!

Truce declared!