Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[bartjam]

Krav Maga fighters has never fought outside the Israeli army, so does that mean it's a useless and unproven art?

there have been KM fighters in MMA competitions - KM is originally military combatives; what is taught to civilians here in Europe isn't that good -IMVHO.
I watched Richard Douieb (5th dan) and e.Yanilov; it was a collection of techniques. Good pre-emptive strikes but also useless high kicks and rigid blocks that don't work in real dangerous situations. Their bare hand anti-blade techniques are the same old traditional ju-jitsu/karate stuff revisited, but I'd never dare to use it against a real badass with a knife in his hand!

[bartjam]

I can only tell you what I heard about WT. German, Swedish and Chinese police train WT. Kernsprecht (?) also claims that 75% of the special police forces in Europe uses parts or the whole WT system in their training.

Some of my fellow WT practioners and instructors in my Wt school have used WT in real life situations to defend themselves. .

Hot Sauce,

also I and some instructors I know have used WT to defend ourselves in the street. It has worked fine. But let me tell you also that:

1) what Kernspecht claims is not entirely true. I know a WT 3rd Technician here where I live who is also a policeman: Police in Europe trains a lot of different systems; they try a lot of them in different seminars, but then people like Kernspecht say that their system is the only one taught to policemen... this is just a business-oriented exaggeration;

2) Unfortunately, almost every WT instructor I met from EWTO claims that WT is the best MA of all time, and that if you apply its principles correctly, you can't be defeated. This is ridiculous indeed, 'cos of course I can reply that if I apply Ju-Jitsu or Sambo principles correctly, nobody could ever beat me. I just hate these claims, but I'm pretty sure that in the future, WT people will become more humble. WT people from "the Alliance" are already changing in the good direction. They train hard, they spar, and they do it against BJJ and MMA people. So that's the good direction for WT, not Leung Ting/Kernspecht bullshit propaganda.

cheers

[Hot Sauce]

there have been KM fighters in MMA competitions - KM is originally military combatives; what is taught to civilians here in Europe isn't that good -IMVHO.
I watched Richard Douieb (5th dan) and e.Yanilov; it was a collection of techniques. Good pre-emptive strikes but also useless high kicks and rigid blocks that don't work in real dangerous situations. Their bare hand anti-blade techniques are the same old traditional ju-jitsu/karate stuff revisited, but I'd never dare to use it against a real badass with a knife in his hand!

In Finland they have a lot of high ranked KM instructors, lots of experts. In Sweden the instructors seem to know what they are talking about, I've been to 2 classes. It's very popular, the newbie classes are full, 30 students/instructor which is to me way too many.

2) Unfortunately, almost every WT instructor I met from EWTO claims that WT is the best MA of all time, and that if you apply its principles correctly, you can't be defeated. This is ridiculous indeed, 'cos of course I can reply that if I apply Ju-Jitsu or Sambo principles correctly, nobody could ever beat me. I just hate these claims, but I'm pretty sure that in the future, WT people will become more humble. WT people from "the Alliance" are already changing in the good direction. They train hard, they spar, and they do it against BJJ and MMA people. So that's the good direction for WT, not Leung Ting/Kernspecht bullshit propaganda.

cheers

The EWTO is falling apart. More and more get kicked out or leave it. The Alliance is a good thing as you wrote, but they are still connected to the source of WT, IWTO / Leung Ting.

[krys]

In Finland they have a lot of high ranked KM instructors, lots of experts.

KM taught in Europe and Israel isn't the same thing..... in Europe it is a commercialised version, not the combative version, an israeli friend confirmed that....
I don't think much of their knive defenses, but I've only seen the commercial version.....
Look at SILAT, ARNIS-ESCRIMA or russian martial arts (ROSS, SYSTEMA) for better knive defenses..... anyway defending against knives is not easy....

[Thai Bri]

All these words and, as yet, no credible substantiated evidence of WC or WT being effective.

Also, being a police officer in Europe, I can categorically state that much of the so called evidence is total crap.

Train whatever you want. But don't believe what you want - believe only what the evidence shows.

[Hot Sauce]

All these words and, as yet, no credible substantiated evidence of WC or WT being effective.

Also, being a police officer in Europe, I can categorically state that much of the so called evidence is total crap.

Train whatever you want. But don't believe what you want - believe only what the evidence shows.

Effective against what? Contact the headquarters for the Swedish, German or/and the Chinese police and they will probably confirm that WT is being used. You want evidence that WT will work in self-defence? What kind of evidence? Can anyone proove to me that any Martial Art will work in self-defence?

Are you a special police officer? In what country? What kind of unarmed and armed combat system are your training as a part of the special police training?

[Thai Bri]

I am a police officer in Manchester, UK. I have been in what many would call the Riot Squad. Our training is crap. Most officer training is, the world over. They have improved it a bit since I last went but we still, basically, have to learn systems that won't really hurt an aggressor and, as such, avoid costly law suits against our organisation.

I can prove that elements of Shukokai Karate, Thai Boxing and Ground grappling work in self defence, as I have used them myself to good effect many times. Here is the breakdown:-

Shukokai Karate - the Gyaku Tsuki Reverse Punch has felled many an opponent. I believe that 95% of the system is rubbish, but they did teach me to hit hard in a double hip motion.

Thai Boxing - grab and knee has taken people out for me. Down they went.

Grappling - Kesagatame always worked to hold someone down whilst colleagues arrived. I have done three years proper grappling training since using it, so would probably use other moves now if appropriate.

I find it amusing that you make a claim about what other police forces are doing, but want me to contact them. Why don't you, since you are making the claim?

I like to think I speak from experience, rather than theory.

[LittleDemon]

Kung fu history THE FACTS!

The Changing Concept and Content of Kung Fu

Note: chinese martial arts have been known by over 40 different terms.

Can you answer the questions of how you will not find the term Kung Fu mentioned in classical chinese texts even though there is a lot of Kung Fu information that has been recorded in history and literature?

Did you know that centuries ago boxing and wrestling were popular sports as they are today?

During the Zhou dynasty (c1030-480BCE) archery and horse riding were important aspects of Kung Fu or as it was known back then as jiji.

In today's world of martial arts we think of it as involving sparring and unarmed combat patterns.

Kung Fu itself is older then civilisation because for as long as humans have existed there has been methods of fighting.

As long as there has been the ability to fight we have learned how to mould these skills to our advantage.
These skills were developed into an art that was Kung Fu, it was created before people began ideas of farming and settlement which were our very beginnings of civilization.

Throughout history and prehistory Kung Fu has been known by other names and the chinese martial arts in general by over 40 different terms.

Kung fu is a modern term 20th century however if you look at classical texts in the chinese language you will not find Kung fu anywhere to be found.

Instead you will find since 1949 the term wushu was being used. But the most commonly used term from the 3rd century BCE to the 19th century CE is "Wuyi" , Wu means martial and Yi means art. Both wushu and wuyi are translated into martial art.

Other common terms used in the past to decifer martial arts are:

Jeuli - combating strength
Jeudi - Wrestling
jiji - techniques of fighting
wuji - Martial techniques
xianpu - butting combat
xianpo - inter-combat
shoupo - hand combat or boxing
zuojiao - gripping and throwing
quanfa - fist techniques
quanshu - art of the fist

Archaeological discoveries show us that in the stone age the Chinese people had a great knowledge of martial arts and had huge amounts of axes, spears and swords made of bones and stones.

the earliest weapon dates back more than 7,000 years ago with shockingly high standard of craftsmenship.

The prehistoric men used their skills against themselves, animals and in tribal wars. More archaeological evidence shows us that during times of piece the people performed ceremonial dances based on their martial arts moves.
This would explain why in our Kung Fu styles today we have dance fluid like sequences of movements when we practice our Kung Fu.

during the Hsia and shang dynasties (c2000-1030BCE) The metal age, weapons were of more sophisticated materials such as copper and later on bronze.

Many martial art concepts were depicted by the Chinese writings on bones and tortoise shells.

The Zhou Dynasty (c1030-480 BCE) had given martial arts the names of "Quanyong" aka fist fighting and Shoupo translated means hand combat. These styles developed into refined styles with good philosophies.

The principles on yin-yang, Wu-Xing (aka the five elemental processes.) and Bagua also known as pakua (the eight archetypal symbols) were there to explain a load of martial art concepts.

When the warring states period arrived (480-221BCE) the government and the general public had a tremendous importance to the martial arts. This was known as jiji aka techniques of fighting, and Xiangpo (inter-combat) at that time.

Archery and horse riding fighting became compulsory in the aspects of martial arts.

"The military strategies of Sun Tzu" were written also during the warring states period.

Once Shi Hwang had liberated China and established the Qin Dynasty (221-207BCE) he brought in the idea of the sport of boxing (shoupo) and Jeudi (wrestling) where 2 people fought in an arena.
these were the earliest recorded boxing and wrestling matches in t he world.

Now dont tell me i dont know my History!

Emma,

[Hot Sauce]

I am a police officer in Manchester, UK. I have been in what many would call the Riot Squad. Our training is crap. Most officer training is, the world over. They have improved it a bit since I last went but we still, basically, have to learn systems that won't really hurt an aggressor and, as such, avoid costly law suits against our organisation.

I can prove that elements of Shukokai Karate, Thai Boxing and Ground grappling work in self defence, as I have used them myself to good effect many times. Here is the breakdown:-

Shukokai Karate - the Gyaku Tsuki Reverse Punch has felled many an opponent. I believe that 95% of the system is rubbish, but they did teach me to hit hard in a double hip motion.

Thai Boxing - grab and knee has taken people out for me. Down they went.

Grappling - Kesagatame always worked to hold someone down whilst colleagues arrived. I have done three years proper grappling training since using it, so would probably use other moves now if appropriate.

I find it amusing that you make a claim about what other police forces are doing, but want me to contact them. Why don't you, since you are making the claim?

I like to think I speak from experience, rather than theory.

Effective against what? You still havn't proved that other Martial Arts work in self-defence, how do you expect me to prove that WT works? If you read my previous post again I said "I can only tell you what I've heard". I know that WT works for me, I have no reason to contact the police. You are the one who keep avoiding my questions. Why do you think WT or WC doesn't work, give us an example. I find it amusing that you are claiming this and that with no evidence whatsoever.

Why don't you visit the WT club in Manchester and say that a boxer will beat them easily and that WT doesn't work. It is easier to show that WT works than explaining it. Don't sit home and think you know everything just because you have read it on the net. Here's the link http://www.wtkungfu.com/

[Thai Bri]

You always change the onus illogically. Logically, people do not have to prove a negative. You do not have to prove that something does not work. The onus is on the guy who claims that something DOES work to prove it. That is simple logic.

A man selling a ship has to prove it will float. His customers don't have to prove that it won't. Same as with a car being able to move etc etc etc.

I don't answer the question because it is an illogical question. If you claimed that effective self defence could be undertaken with half a pork sausage, the onus to prove that the afore mentioned sausage was effective is on you. It is not my job to prove that it isn't.

Your logic is totally flawed. And, as such, not a great advert for your position. It sounds really desperate.

Just show me real cases where WC or WT has been used in free style competition or real self defence. Emphasis on the word "real".

My thanks again to Emma the Demon for claiming that Kung Fu is older than civilisation itself. That line suggesting that any fighting art is Kung Fu is breath taking in its gormlessness.

[Thai Bri]

"WT is a complete system of self-defence which works for everyone regardless of their size, strength, gender or athleticism.

Find out why Wing Tsun is the only self-defence you'll ever need!"


The above is a quote from their web site. Do you think that WT is the only self defence a person will ever need?

[LittleDemon]

My thanks again to Emma the Demon for claiming that Kung Fu is older than civilisation itself. That line suggesting that any fighting art is Kung Fu is breath taking in its gormlessness.[/QUOTE]


Excuse me but if you read the article i state that wushu and wuyi were 2 different names for kung fu which when translated means Martial art not kung fu so yes martial arts were all referred to as kung fu back then because wushu and wuyi were preferred names for kung fu at the time even though when translated dosent state the word kung fu because kung fu is a more modernised word, and boxing and other styles wern;t devloped until the qin dynasty 221-207 BCE so shut up ok and get the facts straight first! we use today however movements to those used before boxing and wrestling came about so yeah the earliest arisen martial art to date is KUNG FU aka Wushu aka wuyi aka MARTIAL ART!
So quit arguing against WC/Wt students its a losing battle on your behalf Thai! and we dont wish to argue with you we would much prefer to discuss kung fu amongs those who are interested in it not those who are against it so go talk in another area of the forum if you disagree so much!

[Hot Sauce]

Do you think that WT is the only self defence a person will ever need?

If I answer like you do; Yes.

It is not possible to prove that a martial art works in self-defense on a discussion forum. You have clearly already decided what works and doesn't, You need to get some first hand experience from WT, otherwise it is not likely that you will change your mind. It's like old people that can't admit they are wrong. Do you really want to know whether WT works or not?

[Thai Bri]

Be fair, I can hardly train each and every lineage of WC and WT.

Wing Chun/Tsun is in a mess. All these so called lineages are just attempts to pretend that each person has the "real" WC. None of them do. It's a very limited system that cannot stand up on its own.

I think 12 months study at 3 different clubs qualifies me to have an opinion of credibility. Especially considering the rest of my experiences and training.

Like I said all along, you're "proving" its' effectiveness in theory. I opt for practice, and in the arena of real life, it is found sadly lacking.

[Hot Sauce]

Speculations...

I have never questioned you credibility regarding the linage you have trained. Stop twisting what I write.

You have to agree that if you train any Martial Art then it's mote likely that you know what to do in self-defense?