Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness.

[m_calingo]

Shit, what shit the shit heck shit is shit trapping shit range shit?

There is no such thing as "trapping range." You can still kick, knee, punch, strike and elbow in it........ so what's the idea?

Especially since "trapping" is useless.

Why is it useless, O Master Sifu Bri?

[Thai Bri]

Firstly, as a point of logic, the onus of proof is one the person who is recommending doing something. Not the person who says it is useless.

But I don't mind. It is useless because it is an unrealistic drill that has no basis in what goes on in a real fight (unless you have any clips to show anything contrary) and, to cap it all, it is practiced in an unrealistic way.

There, useless.

[AustinWT]

Leung Ting Wing Tsun

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about Wing Tsun on this fourm, so I decided to post this to answer anyone's questions about Leung Ting Wing Tsun. If anyone wants to know more, I'd be happy to email you info or honestly answer questions. If I don't answer right away, it isn't that I am ignoring you, I just am not on here often.

Wing Tsun has 12 student grades and 4 Technician grades, a 5th Master Grade, then 6 master levels. The student grades are designed to give you the techniques of Wing Tsun. At Primary Level, you have gathered the techniques from Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu you start to practice in a more free environment, in addition to learning Biu Tze. There is more (Wooden Dummy, Chi Gerk, Weapons), but this is where I have ventured so far, so I do not know with certainty what is later covered.

I've been training in Leung Ting Wing Tsun since September of 1999. I stopped for a while, then started again in August of 2001. I have been training it for 5 years (this August). In June of 2005, I tested and passed for Primary Level Technician. I train about 4 days a week (some weeks more), about 12-14 hours a week. I am definitely not an expert or master, but I will answer what I can with the knowledge I've obtained so far.

The basic training idea is that the forms hold the "dictionary" of techniques that exist. You train those to obtain (then retain) the muscle memory to repeat those movements in drills and combat. The forms, Chi sau, and drills are related to fighting like stretching/exercising for a competitive swim is related to actually swimming.

Siu Nim Tau

-Teaches you to relax certain muscles of your body and tense others.
-Helps your body become stronger with the idea of using your legs to allow mobility while obtaining structure.
-Holds the initial catalog of techniques you will always use. (Right? Masters use the basics excellently, not that they use advanced techniques. Advanced just means you are excellent at the basics and can use that great foundation to do other things)

Chum Kiu

-Teaches you structurally sound movement while performing the techniques.
-Introduces various kicking techniques, as well as other hand techniques.
-Teaches you the techniques to "bridge the gap"

Biu Tze

-Attacking movements
-A Flexible attacking force is developed when practiced for a long time

Let me clarify what I mean by "techniques" above. Techniques are a catalog of how your body should ideally be positioned in a given scenario. This is not answering the question about how one gets there or how it is applied if someone is not willing to let you do this.

Essentially, Wing Tsun teaches you to relax your body and through training and time. Over time, your tendons and ligaments stretch and become much more flexible. The attacks have a sort of whip to them and can become quite powerful. I think the misunderstanding often heard here comes from the fact that in the beginning, it is hard to develop any correct power. In my experience, most people do not spend the time needed to develop it, and so resign to believe it isn't powerful. It isn't something that develops overnight, it takes time. On a related subject, there is a misunderstanding that the only attack Wing Tsun uses is the straight, vertical fist. This is true in the beginning, but only because it is believed that spending time developing one strong attribute is better than learning a lot of attacking techniques without effectiveness (the adage of one sharp knife being better than 10 dull ones). In addition, almost all of the future attacks borrow the same concept of attacking with the whip like motion. The Chum Kiu form introduces a lifting punch (a sort of uppercut), palm strikes, elbows, knees, and thumb attacks to eyes. Biu Tze introduces knees, other elbows, a hooking punch, eye attacks, double punches, forearm attacks, and other open hand attacks.

I find the interesting premise about Wing Tsun is that the answer to the "what do you do if this happens" question is usually "it depends". The reason it depends is because the exercise you do called "Chi Sau", teaches you the reactions you need to bridge the gap between static training and live reactions. Chi Sau essentially is a tool used to teach one to deal with force (both your own and the opponents). Once you have finished the Chi Sau "sections" and have a rudementary understanding of how to use force, you are then in a position to start working on more freely using these reactions in a random environment. I believe it is absolutely critical to learn to use your reactions in a hard sparring environment against people who a using a variety of attacks unknown to you beforehand. This is often uncomfortable and not desired by many, but anything less is not coming close enough to a real self-defense situation. I have not mastered this aspect yet, but I am working on it.

Wing Tsun covers kicking, punching, elbow/knee, clinching, and ground-fighting range. The ground-fighting range isn't really covered in detail until you get further. I can provide as much as anyone wants to know about any range (provided I actually do know the answer. I certainly don't know it all.) , but I know a lot are curious how to deal with grappling. I have a few friends that are grapplers (no one in the Black Belt range, though). Sometimes they can get me down and submit me, sometimes they can't. Even if you go to the ground, there are still attacking and defending techniques that are used. It is just our goal is not to restrain or use locks, it is to strike. Any opening to strike is usually taken. The flexible force developed and remaining supple and relaxed helps to avoid some locks.

Anyway, I have not provided anywhere near the information required to adequately discuss Wing tsun, but I hope to at least establish that I can honestly answer questions about the art, with the limited knowledge I have. If anyone wants to know the honest truth about what Wing Tsun is, I will attempt to give my best answer.

[AustinWT]

Wing Tsun

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about Wing Tsun on this forum, so I decided to post this to answer anyone's questions about Leung Ting Wing Tsun. If anyone wants to know more, I'd be happy to email you info or honestly answer questions. If I don't answer right away, it isn't that I am ignoring you, I just am not on here often.

Wing Tsun has 12 student grades and 4 Technician grades, a 5th Master Grade, then 6 master levels. The student grades are designed to give you the techniques of Wing Tsun. At Primary Level, you have gathered the techniques from Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu you start to practice in a more free environment, in addition to learning Biu Tze. There is more (Wooden Dummy, Chi Gerk, Weapons), but this is where I have ventured so far, so I do not know with certainty what is later covered.

I've been training in Leung Ting Wing Tsun since September of 1999. I stopped for a while, then started again in August of 2001. I have been training it for 5 years (this August). In June of 2005, I tested and passed for Primary Level Technician. I train about 4 days a week (some weeks more), about 12-14 hours a week. I am definitely not an expert or master, but I will answer what I can with the knowledge I've obtained so far.

The basic training idea is that the forms hold the "dictionary" of techniques that exist. You train those to obtain (then retain) the muscle memory to repeat those movements in drills and combat. The forms, Chi sau, and drills are related to fighting like stretching/exercising for a competitive swim is related to actually swimming.

Siu Nim Tau

-Teaches you to relax certain muscles of your body and tense others.
-Helps your body become stronger with the idea of using your legs to allow mobility while obtaining structure.
-Holds the initial catalog of techniques you will always use. (Right? Masters use the basics excellently, not that they use advanced techniques. Advanced just means you are excellent at the basics and can use that great foundation to do other things)

Chum Kiu

-Teaches you structurally sound movement while performing the techniques.
-Introduces various kicking techniques, as well as other hand techniques.
-Teaches you the techniques to "bridge the gap"

Biu Tze

-Attacking movements
-A Flexible attacking force is developed when practiced for a long time

Let me clarify what I mean by "techniques" above. Techniques are a catalog of how your body should ideally be positioned in a given scenario. This is not answering the question about how one gets there or how it is applied if someone is not willing to let you do this.

Essentially, Wing Tsun teaches you to relax your body and through training and time. Over time, your tendons and ligaments stretch and become much more flexible. The attacks have a sort of whip to them and can become quite powerful. I think the misunderstanding often heard here comes from the fact that in the beginning, it is hard to develop any correct power. In my experience, most people do not spend the time needed to develop it, and so resign to believe it isn't powerful. It isn't something that develops overnight, it takes time. On a related subject, there is a misunderstanding that the only attack Wing Tsun uses is the straight, vertical fist. This is true in the beginning, but only because it is believed that spending time developing one strong attribute is better than learning a lot of attacking techniques without effectiveness (the adage of one sharp knife being better than 10 dull ones). In addition, almost all of the future attacks borrow the same concept of attacking with the whip like motion. The Chum Kiu form introduces a lifting punch (a sort of uppercut), palm strikes, elbows, knees, and thumb attacks to eyes. Biu Tze introduces knees, other elbows, a hooking punch, eye attacks, double punches, forearm attacks, and other open hand attacks.

I find the interesting premise about Wing Tsun is that the answer to the "what do you do if this happens" question is usually "it depends". The reason it depends is because the exercise you do called "Chi Sau", teaches you the reactions you need to bridge the gap between static training and live reactions. Chi Sau essentially is a tool used to teach one to deal with force (both your own and the opponents). Once you have finished the Chi Sau "sections" and have a rudementary understanding of how to use force, you are then in a position to start working on more freely using these reactions in a random environment. I believe it is absolutely critical to learn to use your reactions in a hard sparring environment against people who a using a variety of attacks unknown to you beforehand. This is often uncomfortable and not desired by many, but anything less is not coming close enough to a real self-defense situation. I have not mastered this aspect yet, but I am working on it.

Wing Tsun covers kicking, punching, elbow/knee, clinching, and ground-fighting range. The ground-fighting range isn't really covered in detail until you get further. I can provide as much as anyone wants to know about any range (provided I actually do know the answer. I certainly don't know it all.) , but I know a lot are curious how to deal with grappling. I have a few friends that are grapplers (no one in the Black Belt range, though). Sometimes they can get me down and submit me, sometimes they can't. Even if you go to the ground, there are still attacking and defending techniques that are used. It is just our goal is not to restrain or use locks, it is to strike. Any opening to strike is usually taken. The flexible force developed and remaining supple and relaxed helps to avoid some locks.

Anyway, I have not provided anywhere near the information required to adequately discuss Wing Tsun, but I hope to at least establish that I can honestly answer questions about the art, with the limited knowledge I have. If anyone wants to know the honest truth about what Wing Tsun is, I will attempt to give my best answer.

[Thai Bri]

You can say that again.

[Tai Chi Fighter]

.......hmmmm, interesting. I will have to discuss Wing Chun with you.

[Sly Dog]

Thai Bri,
I studied Wing Chun Kuen under Sifu Steve Cottrell for seven years. I understand your frustration with Wing Chun, and I can make an educated determination about the training you received during your year. The Problem was not you, it was your instructor.

If you cannot take Wing Chun concepts and make them come alive for combat then you are exactly right, they are simply drills that have no point. Wing Chun at its core is a combat art, and a brutally effective one, but it like most other martial arts is not the end all system.

Unfortunately, there are many Wing Chun students throughout the country who have suffered the same year long (or longer in many cases) frustration because schools hold back techniques, explaination of techniques, and absolutely application of techniques.

There is no way to train in a combat art without one on one contact. Drills serve a purpose as does Chi Sao, but if practical martial application cannot be drawn from it the term "Martial" should quickly be removed.

I know that Wing Chun has been and is used in combat. I know that Wing Chun concepts can be succesfully integrated into an overall repertoire of effective combat techniques, and I know Wing Chun teachers who know how to make this happen.

I wish you success in your future training and that whatever system you decide to use, that it serves you well.

[Garland]

There is no way to train in a combat art without one on one contact. Drills serve a purpose as does Chi Sao, but if practical martial application cannot be drawn from it the term "Martial" should quickly be removed.

I know that Wing Chun has been and is used in combat. I know that Wing Chun concepts can be succesfully integrated into an overall repertoire of effective combat techniques, and I know Wing Chun teachers who know how to make this happen.

I like this guy for a gung fu guy...he seems to understand that people need to augment their pet arts. Mad props.

[Thai Bri]

Yep. Not sure if I agree, but nice post!

[Trace]

Wing Chun

Thai Bri
Have you ever seen Sifu Francis Fong in action -- attended any of his seminars? If not, think about visiting the Francis Fong Academy. Sifu Fong also instructs at the Legends seminar at Guro Dan Inosanto's academy in Los Angeles and you can catch him there.
I don't know who you learned Wing Chun from, but Sifu Fong can show you just how effective Wing Chun can be.

[Troll Virus]

Heaven on earth, why does this need to be so complicated?

Look!
Wing Chun, Karate or whatever named art are not sticks of 'Magic Glue'

To suggest one over another will hold your shit to the wall better, is utterly ludicrous until you have the occasion to contest 'whose sticks the longest'.

If Thai Brai maintains that his current mode of practice makes his shit stickier than yours then the proofs really in the brown pudding.

To me though, he, the thread and this forum seem to be missing the whole point.

90+% of WC/WT/VT is shit.
90+% of every other art is shit.
There's a lucky few that get to experience the other 10%, but sadly most of the 90% think it's them.

So however many times I say you're wrong, I can also be wrong.
Real proof, if you need such a thing, boils down to 'two men enter, one man leaves' situations and Martial Arts (for the 90%) have got **** all to do with that.

Take the good aspects of arts, and use them to help you.
Theorizing about what's good and what's not, is absolutely futile.

[Thai Bri]

Now this is where you are wrong.

There are arts that have already transcended the 90% rule, and already kicked that 90% of shit out. Look at WW2 Combatives, or MMA even. Look at Boxing, Thai Boxing, Judo and basic BJJ. You learn no shit there.

But your average Karate/TKD/Kung Fu class? They're still 90% shit.

[Troll Virus]

Now this is where you are wrong.

There are arts that have already transcended the 90% rule, and already kicked that 90% of shit out. Look at WW2 Combatives, or MMA even. Look at Boxing, Thai Boxing, Judo and basic BJJ. You learn no shit there.

OK, that's a steaming pile of dung!
They're superior because what?
They've been approved in some kind of sporting format?
You're talking shit.

But your average Karate/TKD/Kung Fu class? They're still 90% shit.

I said that already.

[Garland]

OK, that's a steaming pile of dung!
They're superior because what?
They've been approved in some kind of sporting format?
You're talking shit.

No...I'd agree with Bri (damn, I'm a poet and I didn't even know it)
because these things he listed were and are actually applied in combative situations today effectively. That's why. And because they are actually geared toward going at it, and practical to boot.

[AustinWT]

I've found the only way you can make Wing Chun work is once you've gathered some techniques, is to fight against a fully resisting opponent with medium/hard contact who doesn't practice Wing Chun. Not just once, but repeatably and with different styles try to figure out the timing, aggresiveness, and how the techniques work against an uncooperative fighter. If you do not do this, you are fooling yourself into believing you can defend yourself against any experienced fighter. I may be inexperienced, and those with greater skill may have figured out more than I know right now, but this is where I've found myself so far in my Martial Arts skills. If you do not believe me, find an experienced Grappler or any full contact striker and try to use Wing Tsun with him. Ask him to go easy on you and show you where you are vulnerable-- cause if you haven't done it before, you are going to get rocked.

Oh and recently, I have been practicing GJJ with some white and blue belts and once I am on the ground, they owned me until I started learning what they're doing and how to defend it (oh and yeah, they still own me most times, but I am getting a little better. Remember, these are White/Blue belts-- not Purple or higher.) If you think you can never spar with a grappler, learn a few ground fighting tricks and be capable of stopping them from taking the fight to the ground, you are living in a fantasy land until you've seriously sparred with them and felt it.

Anyway, this is most likely the ranting of my inexperience and a maybe exhaustion or a mild concussion from getting getting accidentally headbutted in the nose while practicing takedowns with those guys.

By the way, why is the Wing Chun crowd so hostile and seemingly closed about other arts? Be open-minded and learn from the other arts. All of the GJJ/Muay Thai people I have been training with are great people. Helpful, ego-less, and open-minded. I've learned much since I've started training with them.