Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness.

[Thai Bri]

Actually, i don't consider my last post a contribution; more a statement of exasperation!

You are entitled to your opinion that Wing Chun is ineffectual, but you really have not got the basic understanding to give an over view of an entire system based on a years training at an obviously inferior school run by an instructor with no understanding of how the principles apply or how to comunicate them to a student. Actually, i'm being charitable to you in saying that. It may well be that the school and instructor were just fine and that it was yourself that were lacking in understanding and talant as a student; being completely devoid of the necessary attitude required to learn effectively.

So, now that i have contributed to your pointless WOMBAT of a thread i refuse to be drawn any further on the issue.

Good luck with your training.
Peace out.

Small Thought. Small Brain.

[Garland]

Small Thought. Small Brain.

...small shoes?

[UKSifu]

Thai Bri, you made some interesting points about Wing Chun. I have to conceed that Wing Chun training and it's public face have changed a great deal over the years. At one time it was considered an excellent fighting style and was extremely popular. Perhaps its popularity was its undoing; the more popular a style becomes the more people jump on the band wagon and the weaker it becomes.

Many of the points you made about the way that your Wing Chun training was approached sadly shows a lack of understanding by your coach. I wont go into everything but it might be helpful to cover a few of your points:

Structure - you mentioned that all the weight was on the back leg and the chin is in the air etc. The W.C. structure should not be like this at all, the weight on the back leg should not resemble a Karate Cat Stance. Sometimes the weightis transfered to the back leg when opponents are fairly square to each other (a bit like sitting into a hard right hander). The head should only be raised when the W.C. practitioner has contacted the arms of the opponent and is in control (many of the so called blocks and movements should only be used once contact is established). Unfortunately most W.C. guys seem to have this riduculous habit of sticking their chins in the air and being bolt upright in open play i.e fighting before earning the right to a dominant position. Wing chun should look a lot like boxing (old bare knuckle) when not in contact.

Chi Sau - Wing Chun is generally an art that fights in close but not grappling close. Again it is often interpreted as getting into the ideal range and staying their whilst a fight is ended. This is why some ponce around at arms length when they should be exploding in very close (clinch range) establishing a dominant position and then hurting their opponents out of the clinch. If this is done well it is more difficult for the opponent to escape to range or establish under hooks etc for take downs. Chi Sau should reflect this aim but it has become too civilised (not at my club I might add) certain etiquetes seem more important and some coaches restrict the game so the can't lose face.

Punching - the vetical fist is only one punch (the inner gate) there are lots more. Again resembling jabs, crosses, hooks, upercuts etc.

Forms - I'm not a fan of forms either but W.C. forms aren't a collection of moves, they show structures and possibilities any weapon at the end of a movement regardless of how small e.g. the opening of fist form (raising hands) imagine one rising to the groin for a gouge. A fist at the end of a thrusting finger (jab), Lan Sau (possibly a choke, or hook structure). Having said that I think that too much emphasis is placed on them.

It sounds as if you were taught a very 2 dimensional view of W.C. even the thrusting fingers would mostly be used as a way to cross from being inside an opponents arms to outside rather than just a finger strike. The training seems very weak too, did you spar, any full contact, train against other styles etc? If not then regardless of your Martial Art it will be weak, a bit like learning to swim without going in the water.

Incidently I have similar background to you former Police Officer, body guard loads of Martial Arts, Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Karate etc but I really rate Wing Chun. As a street art I've relied on it more than anything else and its served me well. It's also not a style that relies on conditioning as much as some others (I also do a lot of BJJ which I really love but conditioning and age is more of a factor, I'd still recomend it though!).

Hope these comments have been useful.

[Thai Bri]

That was pretty interesting. And written without the usual defensive insults.

Thanks.

[UKSifu]

Not a problem. It bothers me how often what is essentially a very good Martial Art is misunderstood by those who claim to be able to teach it.

[Grixti]

Not a problem. It bothers me how often what is essentially a very good Martial Art is misunderstood by those who claim to be able to teach it.

I agree. Ever since i joined this site i have seen so many posts and videos of people knocking wing chun as a style. But i have been doing it for a few months now and already find it very useful and have learned loads. In my lessons at Kamon we do a lot of fitness and pad work, along with all the usuall sensitivity drills.

My sifu (Roy fretwell) also mixes in takedowns and holds every now and then, and we have done lessons on arm and joint locks. We even have people who also practice styles (other than wing chun) at the club who contribute other moves from these styles for us to use. Sifu may also show us which Wing Chun technique to use to counter these attacks. The sessions are well rounded and very effective. After only a small amount of training i feel like a more compitent fighter and the training has even got me through a few hostile situations.

One of the best things about my wing chun training is that mostly all of the techniques (Not including the sensitivity exersizes) can be applied to real life situations. Even where MMA and BJJ would fail. In a street fight your not going to try and takedown an apponent, or even try and submit him because youll get your head kicked in my his mates. So what if Wing Chun doesnt cover many floor techniques... the floor's not a place you want to be in a street fight. We are tought the best ways to get up and also attack whilst on the floor. We are also tought open hand techniques such as strikes to the throat, and various other strikes that are banned in MMA. I dont think people take this into account when assessing wing chun as a fighting style.

Basically, you cant judge wing chun on a video of a load of spotty men prancing around tickling a punch bag. And i understand that people have had bad experiences from bad instructers, but if you look around you might actually find a really good club that will teach you a lot. The art, if tought correctly, is actually a really well developed and practical system.

[Red Rum]

In a street fight your not going to try and takedown an apponent, or even try and submit him because youll get your head kicked in my his mates. So what if Wing Chun doesnt cover many floor techniques... the floor's not a place you want to be in a street fight. We are tought the best ways to get up and also attack whilst on the floor. We are also tought open hand techniques such as strikes to the throat, and various other strikes that are banned in MMA. I dont think people take this into account when assessing wing chun as a fighting style. .

yes, do remember though that whilst you don't aim to go to the floor as a wing chunner, sometimes you are dragged, pushed or punched to the floor

Basically, you cant judge wing chun on a video of a load of spotty men prancing around tickling a punch bag. And i understand that people have had bad experiences from bad instructers, but if you look around you might actually find a really good club that will teach you a lot. The art, if tought correctly, is actually a really well developed and practical system.

I think the trouble is that there are very few good clubs around
My friend went to Australia recently and could not find one decent school
I think the UK is lucky as you have the likes of Kevin Chan, Alan Orr, James Sinclair and many others who train and teach wing chun in practical, useful ways

Roy Fretwell is extremely experienced in wing chun, but he also practices many other arts which he is also exceptional at.

I find many wing chunners blind themselves to their art - you need a good working knowledge of the other arts to help your wing chun progress

[jubaji]

In a street fight your not going to try and takedown an apponent, or even try and submit him because youll get your head kicked in my his mates. So what if Wing Chun doesnt cover many floor techniques... the floor's not a place you want to be in a street fight. We are tought the best ways to get up and also attack whilst on the floor. We are also tought open hand techniques such as strikes to the throat, and various other strikes that are banned in MMA. .

...............next.............................

[Thai Bri]

Its that old chestnut again...... At my club we prove Wing Chun works! We train like Kickboxers and BJJers......

[UKSifu]

We train like Kickboxers and BJJers......

Perhaps it would be more correct to say that some Wing Chun clubs train how they should.

Incidently there are many Kickboxing clubs that don't, we have all seen the trend towards kickboxing as aerobics and the emergence of kickboxing and even boxing clubs that never spar. BJJ clubs usually train hard and for combat but how many BJJ clubs train outside their rules these days? There is usually a distinction between what has become sport BJJ and BJJ for MMA. Even in MMA there are those that do and those that use it for the workout. In many amature MMA bouts there are no head shots (so the dilution begins).

I think it is fair to say that some MARTIAL ARTS clubs train for combat i.e. they are 'Martial' and some are not.

[Red Rum]

Its that old chestnut again...... At my club we prove Wing Chun works! We train like Kickboxers and BJJers......

Thai Bri, you seem to think that all martial arts train the same way - ie MT guys all train the same way, BJJ guys train the same way etc

This is not the case. I found a local MT club where they do an hour of fitness before doing any pad work/sparring etc (which means about 30mins of real training)

The MT school I train at doesn't do much fitness (basic warm up and then straight into the pads).

Like in wing chun - I have seen schools where fighters aren't allowed to make any contact with each other. In Kamon it is full contact and people go as hard as they can handle

It doesn't matter whether this way of training is similar to any particular style - it is still wing chun.

You might have to ask yourself what defines wing chun for you as you seem to have a problem with this. And don't come back saying something like 'a bad art with silly little punches'. It is a genuine question - are you looking at methods of training or particular stances or particular drills?

I don't have a problem with wing chun schools that incorperate things like nunchakus (as most American schools do) or escrima. It doesn't matter whether the stance is not 70% on the back leg, or whether the forms are the same as other schools. The fundamentals of wing chun (the principles, formwork, punching styles, chi sao) are really what defines wing chun for me

In the world of MT and TKD I have seen numerous different ways of doing things. One TKD school did grappling and clinch work as part of its syllabus - would you say that that style was not TKD?

If a MT style didn't use elbows would you say that it wasn't MT?

Or what if a BJJ person used a punch? Would you say that he/she wasn't practising BJJ?

If you go back 200 years I expect that no wing chun system there looked the same as any that exists today. This is exactly the same as any other martial art

[SmallThought]

Red Rum,

Ignorance is bliss... and you're one happy mother fucker!!!

[UKSifu]

Red Rum,

Ignorance is bliss... and you're one happy mother fucker!!!

What a strange comment to make, what did you disagree with?

[Thai Bri]

Don't worry about SmallThought - he has an apt name.

Guys. Each style will have certain things in common. We all have pretty similar bodies, and they only move in certain, finite, ways.

But people have devised different martial arts styles. They involve different training methods, and different techniques.

To claim the name of one style, yet clearly use the methods and techniques of another, is counter productive and useless. What next? Someone claiming to train and use Wing Chun in a tennis competition?

[UKSifu]

Have you never heard of 'Shaolin Football'?

Seriously though, this is where systems are diluted. Wing Chun has its specialist area i.e. close, from contact and has training methods to develop this e.g. Chi Sau. Unfortunately this can lead to the misconception that this is all the system involves. There is far more to Wing Chun than just this area; a rounded practitioner must understand how to earn the right to fight at that distance and what to do when things go wrong. Therefore he/she must train in a way that reflects this as surely must all martial artists.

Most martial arts have something that sets them apart and will emphasise this in their training; they become ineffective when that is all they train. Unfortunately that is exactly what many Wing Chun and other Martial Arts clubs do.