William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun

[Thai Bri]

I've managed to shed a stone these last few weeks, partly due to the sacrifice of my beloved family sized dairy milks.....

We have much in common!

[dimmak786]

What a fascinating thread and I thank thi bri and tameo for making it so entertaining.

At the beggining Thi Bri comes across as the archetype fat loser, an internet hero, bitter at his own failings and taking it out on someone like william cheung who is everything he wants to be and cant be.

Than you have tameo who comes across as the virginal 18 year old who worships william cheung and is honest and decent still living with the hope that time is on his side and he could one day be as good as cheung.

Now you have the true picture revealed. Tameo wasnt even born when the 1986 incident took place and lied about training in russia, and seeing videos of the real incident.

Why is it that this cheung-Boztepe incident so fascinates the psyche that people like Tameo must lie and lie about it. I think it has something to do with the whole mystique surrounding Bruce Lee and the 70's era of kung fu mystery.

Cheung is one of the last living links to that.

Going back to this thread I was wrong about thi bri. What a turnaround.

It seems it was tameo who is exposed as a fraud.

As for my view I think Boztepe is a cowardly bum and i tend to beleive Cheungs story.

[Red Rum]

You will tend to find that Thai Bri knows what he's talking about.
Whilst he is a wing chun basher, he has at least done some wing chun, so he is talking from his experiences

As for Cheung - my friends brother trained in America recently under John Hopkins University
He attended a school supposedly run by one of the best wing chun guys on the planet. It was this guy

http://webhost5.nts.jhu.edu/kclub/officers.html

The guy didn't turn up until half way through the class, on his mobile phone
He then asked my mates bro what wing chun he had done and whether it was the traditional or the 'modified' version

He then spent the rest of the lesson stating how my friends brother was not doing traditional wing chun and that he had not been shown the true wing chun

It then turned out that the guy is a William Cheung student.
I have no idea as to what Cheung is telling his students but it sounds like nonsense

My Sifu trained directly under Ip Chun after training in the Samuel Kwok association, yet he is proud to say that he is always adapting the wing chun system to make it more relevant to what people need in todays society
He never shouts out that he was taught by the son of Yip Man etc
He never states that the chun he teaches is traditional or the right way

My view is, you train your martial art to work for you. It might be that you don't want to fight people and bulk yourself up like a cage fighter. It might be that you don't want to work on hand techniques and want to develop your foot techniques and movement.

People train for different reasons and it never matters whether the art you train now is the same as 400 years ago

[dimmak786]

I tend to beleive Cheungs story about tape editing, he was working without a permit in Germany an dhe didnt want to hurt or kill the guy an dend up locked up.

The guy is pure class and has always been about upholding the true spirit of chinese martial arts.

For those who argue he is a phony, there is the Bruce Lee evidence, and watch the youtube video of how fast he punches. These are just two little titbits in the scheme of things but the evidence stacks up in favour of Cheungs story.

Even if you look at what has happended to the Kerspecht/Bozetepe/TIng alliance in the last 20 years. LIke the scounderals and rats they are they have turned on themselves. No honour amongst thieves I guess.

Whilst throughout Dr Cheung has been the epitome of dignity content that he handled Boztepe the way he had to.

For the record I dont do Wing Chun I was just someone around in the mid 90's when Boztepe was trying to promote himself off the NHB era UFC phenomenon.

It does seem like Boztepe is all about self promotion and thuggery in the martial arts.

[Thai Bri]

Bruce Lee evidence? What is that then?

And, like I said, I was around in the mid 80's when "Dr" Cheung was promoting himself, until he got owned in a schoolgirl fight.

I don't know, nor care, about Boztepe. If he were to enter the MMA ring against ANY established MMA fghter , I would bet on the other guy.


But Cheung got what he asked for, and then wished he had not asked.

[dimmak786]

The Bruce Lee letters.

Bruce called Cheung "the ultimate fighter".

Thai Bri what was it like in the mid 80's when this was going on? By that I mean what were peoples thoughts on Cheung prior to and after the incident. And how did you learn of the incident as obviously no internet than.

[Thai Bri]

As per other posts I have made in this thread - Cheung was all over the Martial Arts press back then. He claimed that only he had been taught "authentic" Wing Chun by Yip Man who had, apparently, even taught his own sons a flawed verson.

Cheung issued his challenge across the MA press, that he knew this ultimate secret system, and was willing to prove it's effectiveness by taking on any challenge.

Boztepe walked up to Cheung whilst Cheung was teaching a seminar. He pointed to one such artcile in a magazine and siad words to the effect of "Did you say this?" When Cheung replied in the affirmative, they squared up, fought, and rolled around like two puppies in a play pen, with neither getting hurt. Boztepe was clearly dominant.

Cheung remained quiet about it all for years. Only years and years later did he re-emerge, with an array of different, often contradictory, excuses.

[freefighter2010]

I respect this guy but still am not convinced that WC is the way foreward. It was developed for small chinese people and not for westerners.

In todays world we have guns so urrrm i think WC is a bit old school dont you think ?. A mugger is not going to throw a wing chun punch at me. I cant bong sa a gun !

[Red Rum]

I respect this guy but still am not convinced that WC is the way foreward. It was developed for small chinese people and not for westerners.

In todays world we have guns so urrrm i think WC is a bit old school dont you think ?. A mugger is not going to throw a wing chun punch at me. I cant bong sa a gun !

Could you do anything else against a gun!!! If someone wants to kill you then they will kill you, simple as!

Things like finger strikes will give you a better chance against a person with a gun, but I have never seen training against armed opponents that was realistic. Why? Because guns are long range weapons

But you are right in that wing chun has its limits

That is why Bruce Lee changed it when he came to America
That is why people like Kevin Chan and Alan Orr integrate other techniques into the system

[Thai Bri]

Bruce Lee changed Wing Chun?

I think the term "rejected" it may suit the facts, though I do think he would have retained bits of it, as well as the atributes it helped him develop early on.

As for integrating other systems into it, I'm all for that. The more integration and the less Wing Chun, the better.

[Red Rum]

Bruce Lee changed Wing Chun?

I think the term "rejected" it may suit the facts, though I do think he would have retained bits of it, as well as the atributes it helped him develop early on.

As for integrating other systems into it, I'm all for that. The more integration and the less Wing Chun, the better.

Bruce didnt really reject it. He said that there were a lot of problems with the wing chun style as it had too many fixed structures

He actually included a huge amount of wing chun in Enter The Dragon.
He also did it in the fight with Chuck in way of the dragon, with the nice added storyline touch that wing chun wouldn't beat karate so he had to switch to JKD

Bruce also went back to Yip Man before he died and asked to be taught Bil Gee

Thai Bri - You'll be pleased to note that Kamon is introducing a lot more boxing and kickboxing into the art

[Liberty]

This is an example of the effects of full-contact Wing Chun chain punches. Notice that, though this bout takes place in a ring, it's without gloves, and there is obvious intent on the part of the fighters to do major damage. The knockout that takes place toward the end is the result of a perfect WC vertical punch to the point of the chin.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2/tda-pics/2007/12/?action=view&current=bd8e3bd1.flv

[Liberty]

Bruce Lee changed Wing Chun?

I think the term "rejected" it may suit the facts, though I do think he would have retained bits of it, as well as the atributes it helped him develop early on.

As for integrating other systems into it, I'm all for that. The more integration and the less Wing Chun, the better.

Thai, bare with me on this for a moment - Wing Chun takes a lot of heat because it is misunderstood. Take this clip for example, here the greatest master of them all is so fast that he actually bends the sapce time continuum - he is so fast that the other looks as if he is not even moving. Of course, Wing Chun outsiders would be unable to see that and thus have to interpret things otherwise. Certificate anyone?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7eA9BfhSgY[/YOUTUBE]

[jubaji]

LOL! Why would he bother putting on the gloves for that?

Btw, this is what most WCers seem to be thinking of when they talk about "grappling"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-Vp_9i7JnQ&NR=1

[Liberty]

All the above said (by all the above) I like the art. It is the art the late Bruce Lee was so formidable with his first years in North America, according to people even now held in the highest regard (Jesse Glover, Taky Kinmura, James Lee, et al). So, while there dozens upon dozens clips all over the internet of people at every rank and level of "mastery" making the art look so poor, that's on them individually. Lee, for example, even during his own Wing Chun days, was respected by the above people (Taky, et al) for both his willingnss and abiity to take on all comers in unrehearsed spars.

Perhaps when those within the Wing Chun world who claim like ability begin to do so, they too may find the arts true limits.

If that is what Kevin Chan and his Kamon Wing Chun and a few others out there are finally up to than I strongly applaud them. Here's to a black eye, a busted rib, to the pain and uncertainty which is a neccesssary part of the pursuit of true fight knowledge and it's adaptations.