Yang-style Tai Chi Chuan

[Mulan]

I'm interested in training in Tai Chi Chuan (for spirituality/health/combat application), and have been doing research on its philosophies and various styles. It seems the Chen style was the one best known for its martial aspect and was the most strenuous in its training. Even Yang Lu Chan the "Ever-victorious" started with the Chen style. But, as I understood it, even though Yang Lu Chan fought using the Chen style, after he settled down he actually modified it into the less rigorous, more flowing, and primarily meditative Yang-style to teach to the general public as a path to greater health and better energy flow.

So, my question is, how effective is Yang-style vs Chen-style in martial application? I worry about this because most of the schools that teach Tai Chi Chuan seem to focus on the Yang-style. I don't know if this is because they think Yang Lu Chan used the Yang style in his duels or because the current trend is to practice Tai Chi Chuan more for health and less for its martial application...? I want to learn Tai Chi Chuan in all it's aspects, and frankly I could be doing a lot of other stuff for health alone, so it is the ideal balance between health and martial application that draws me to Tai Chi Chuan... perhaps even leaning a tad more towards the martial aspect.

Is Yang-style capable of applying Tai Chi Chuan's martial aspect with the same or higher efficiency as Chen-style?

[2bob]

Depedns largely on the approach and knowledge of the teacher. Most Yang style you see has been simplified somewhat.

I've seen more "martial" work in Yang than I have in Chen, but the leading teachers in both styles seeem to be pretty much the same IME. Don't think that Chen must be "better" simply because they have some fast moves in their forms. If that were the case boxers would beat them all. Hmm, then again....

[Nothingness]

If you are lucky enough to have a Sun style school in you area, you might want to check it out.

[Mulan]

Don't think that Chen must be "better" simply because they have some fast moves in their forms.

That's not why I would see Chen as better. The faster forms are meant to use energy released from muscle tension, aren't they? It just seems that the Yang style was purposefully tailored to be like a Tai Chi Chuan-lite for health.

[guy incognito]

The power released is from ligament and tendon tension not muscle tension.Muscle tension slows you down.Yang is pretty good for martial applications but finding someone who knows them can be hard(Most know how to be at one with the universe and all that crap without ever knowing its a MA)

[2bob]

"It just seems that the Yang style was purposefully tailored to be like a Tai Chi Chuan-lite for health."

Try some research into the actual Yang family training rather than the other versions.

[Mulan]

Thank you all for your input. One more question, if I may. It seems in my area there's basically only Yang-style Tai Chi Chuan being taught, but the ones teaching it have trained with different Masters. One has been trained under Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong, the other under Grandmaster Wai Lun Choi.

Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong's big asset is that he is a second-generation disciple of Yang Cheng-Fu, grandson of Yang Lu Chan himself. But his site seems pretty desperate and amateurish in its self-presentation.

Grandmaster Wai Lun Choi seems to have focussed more on external Kung Fu in his training, has actually fought other people (not sure if Doc-Fai Wong did or not), is anti-mysticism and stresses the principles of physics.

Then again, this site says there are no more Grandmasters in Tai Chi Chuan (but I think the Grandmasters I mentioned above were more referring to their status in other Kung Fu disciplines) and that people who flaunt their credentials are usually lying.

Has anyone here heard of either Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong or Grandmaster Wai Lun Choi, or have an opinion on whose students would be more useful to learn from?

[Jazzshredder86]

It just seems that the Yang style was purposefully tailored to be like a Tai Chi Chuan-lite for health.

Not true. Yang Lu-Ch'an was interested in Taijiquan for mainly martial reasons. Just because he got rid of some of the stomping, high kicking, external aspects of Chen style doesnt make it less effective, just less outwardly "scary" looking.

[sherwinc]

i really love this FOUL and UNFAIR techniques of Tai Chi Chuan Sword unexpected attack......

i often used this kind of unexpected sword attack.......

[peppi]

Is Yang-style capable of applying Tai Chi Chuan's martial aspect with the same or higher efficiency as Chen-style?

Definitely.

[ttruscott]

Tai chi is a method of movement and creation of force against an opponent without generating power.

It is not technique based as every technique can be tai chi or not tai chi depending on how the movement was generated in the body.

The practitioner does not feel like he is creating power but the opponent feels that he has been hit with irresistible power. This is internal creation of movement.

it is not the style that teaches tai chi deeper than outer movement, it is the teacher.

Ted

[kingoftheforest]

Is Yang-style capable of applying Tai Chi Chuan's martial aspect with the same or higher efficiency as Chen-style?

While Chen style does incorporate a stomp, which therefore puts it outside of Tai Chi's rule of no dead movement, it does generate the same force.

However due to the stomp being a dead movement it is not as efficient.

As someone said Tai Chi isn't about technique it's conceptual.
The movements are just a basic outline to be used.

A lot of MA's generate the same amount of power it's just how you get there and how efficiently you do it that changes.

[kanik]

I'm interested in training in Tai Chi Chuan (for spirituality/health/combat application), and have been doing research on its philosophies and various styles. It seems the Chen style was the one best known for its martial aspect and was the most strenuous in its training. Even Yang Lu Chan the "Ever-victorious" started with the Chen style. But, as I understood it, even though Yang Lu Chan fought using the Chen style, after he settled down he actually modified it into the less rigorous, more flowing, and primarily meditative Yang-style to teach to the general public as a path to greater health and better energy flow.

So, my question is, how effective is Yang-style vs Chen-style in martial application? I worry about this because most of the schools that teach Tai Chi Chuan seem to focus on the Yang-style. I don't know if this is because they think Yang Lu Chan used the Yang style in his duels or because the current trend is to practice Tai Chi Chuan more for health and less for its martial application...? I want to learn Tai Chi Chuan in all it's aspects, and frankly I could be doing a lot of other stuff for health alone, so it is the ideal balance between health and martial application that draws me to Tai Chi Chuan... perhaps even leaning a tad more towards the martial aspect.

Is Yang-style capable of applying Tai Chi Chuan's martial aspect with the same or higher efficiency as Chen-style?

I do yang style tai chi, and I have good teachers, and so for me, it is literally the best martial art I have ever done, and beleive me, I have gone through a lot. Thats my personal oppinion though. In yang style tai chi, there are two forms, the old yand and the new yang, the old yand is the form made by Yang Lu'chan, and it isnt ALL slow movements, though it does have some, it also has explosive fa jing movements (if you have a teacher that knows how to teach them to you), and the new yang form is the one most people do for health, it is all slow, and was made by Yang Lu'chans... ummm... grandson? I cant rememebr, But he's name was Yang chen fu, and he made it as a form so that the general public could learn tai chi. Hence the reason its all slow, so it is suitable for everyone, and it is primarily a health form. Though that doesnt mean its martial benefits and application are any less, they are just more abstract. Learning the Chen fu (new) form, makes it MUCH easier to learn the old form (lu'chan). Also proper tai chi training, isnt ALL forms either, it isnt even just forms and push hands, but they have a good amount of other training methods as well. Also if you find a good teacher, you get all the knowledge of pressure points, how to use them for health, and how to use them for hurt. You learn the fighting and the healing with a good teacher, self healing and other people. Tai chi is really such a great and extremely detailed martial art.

[peppi]

Regarding the martial aspect of Tai Chi check out the dvd by master Yang Jun

[ggg214]

i think in yang lu chan's age, when one wants to creat a new style and make it accepted by public, there is only one way :defeat anyone who challenges.even in 1980s, if you wanted to open a class to public, even you just taught your students in public parks, you would received many challenges from visitors. if you lost, you left.
based on this, yang style couldn't just be healthy. it must be better in martial applications.
just regarding the forms of yang and chen, we should say that chen style is more like external martial art, and yang style is less. this means yang style is more internal. on the way from external to internal, yang style is going further.
furthermore, does slow mean less applicable and more healthy? i don't think so. taiji requires any point on a circle has the same power. slowing down makes you easily to find out which point is less power.that's the basic purpose of slowness.