Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

[Boxing Master]

I am a fan of many different styles of Kung Fu, especially Shaolin and Wing Chun. I have never seen a Kung Fu artist in battle against another martial artist, in competition or in the srtreet. I have heard that it is qouted to be "Too Airy Fairy," to be used effectively in combat situations. If this is true, how did Bohidarma(If I am spelling his name correctly, if not forgive me.) and other Kung Fu artists gain so much respect in the martial arts world.

[kiddbjj]

i did preying mantis kung fu for five years and although their were some great techniques in the style for the most part the training methods used were not really fight orientated and inefficient. For example, one of the unique aspects of preying mantis is using the "mantis catch" to basically catch an opponents punch and then follow up with your own technique. we sparred basically every lesson for the 5 years i was there yet i was never able to apply this technique properly. instead i improvised a bit and began using my "mantis catch" to pin an opponents are arm across their chest before striking them or simply dragging their guard down to get at their head. this worked well but was not what we had trained. also the stancing and techniques as practiced in the forms are usually completley different from the way you would apply them in sparring. in most forms the arms are rarely in a position to protect your head (so important!) and i ended up with a bad habit of keeping my hands just low enough to get routinely smacked in the mouth when we would spar. i basically had to modify what i learnt based on my own sparring experience rather than being taught correctly in the first place.

besides that kung fu is basically one of the oldest combative arts so it has the most "names" and history

[Thai Bri]

Kung Fu is not considered effective because when it takes on other styles it gets whupped. Thee are some that train like Thai Boxers, yet retain their Kung Fu name. They do OK, but they're hardy representing Kung Fu!

Bhodidharma etc. got "respect" because of the exaggeration factor. You watch any average Kung Fu demo, and then listen to the people around you. You will soon be hearing how this run of the mill performance was "super fast!" and "Super powerful!" etc. etc.

[Dim Wit Moc]

Kung Fu is a generic term which encompases many techniques and styles. Many movements in kung fu are meant as exercise internal organs or disguise combat moves. There are some, and I repeat some, practitioners who are into it for the beautiful and graceful movements. They can do some very fancy things and can kick very high, but in honest moments, they will probably tell you that they are not all that interested in fighting. Wushu stuff is for show, and can be very entertaining and flashy.

Some instructors are so into perfect form (I have studied under two myself) that they seem to lose sight of the fact that the forms with fighting applications do not have to be perfect. They have to be executed and adapted based on circumstances. No one taught me this directly. I had to learn from experience. Make no mistake. Kung fu can be very effective and deadly in combat. I have worked very hard to sift through the "classical mess" that Bruce Lee talked about, and apply what is useful, and kung fu is full of useful things. There are really kung fu guys who can fight like ten tigers as the old saying goes. If a guy can fight, he can fight, regardless of the system.

I would be the last one to criticise anyone who studies kung fu for health benefits, as this is also part of my motivation. My study of kenpo has been a very beneficial addition to my martial arts because of its emphasis on boxing, grappling, and using the whole body as a weapon. All styles have much to teach, and even though kung fu is my favorite, I don't want to be confined to any box.

When choosing a martial art, body build, personality, personal preference, and other factors should be in the mix before making a decision. No single art is right for everybody. Many kung fu styles are the right fight choice for a great many people. Some styles, and forms within styles, are outright vicious and very effective, but are not for the squeemish. Other kung fu styles and instructors are not right for some people. Choose carefully.

To broad brush kung fu as ineffective is not a fair assessment, and someone who runs into some of the nasty guys who practice it can be in for a real surprise.

[Thai Bri]

If you can find them.

[ChunGi]

I find kungfu in general. is more focus on speed and blocking, for instance they will try to redirect a strike and hit the major muscle group of the striking limb. this unfortunatly is not effective agianst a fast combo or fake or light punch fallowed by a low or misection kick (i like the bladder personally). So in no sense is a kunfu martial artist a easy fighter... but they are usually more prone to fighting within there martial art. Another hindering concept surrounding kunfu is that they use weapons as there main form of attack, and sometime defense. So when u take away the weapon such as in a real defense situation or in a competition, they are more prone to making mistakes and recieve devistating blows. Most effective martial artists in kunfu, such as bruce lee, use teh art as a base to incorperate there own style, (ex Jeet Kun Do) which is a combonation of karate and kungfu, with major influences of Shoalin culture as well as Mr. Lee himself.

[jmd161]

Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

Because too many people don't understand it , don't Spend enough time training it , and there are far too many fake and fruad teachers out there.

I can sit here and argue about it all day ,but why?!?!

People watch the UFC/Pride and think that's real fighting ,it's not!! It's close ,but it's still a sport with rules. There is no "NEXT" best thing to real fighting ,nothing prepares you for a real fight. It's funny how ppl watch the UFC/Pride and think that what they see there ,is what will happen in the street or real combat.

The people you see in the UFC/Pride are trained fighters for that arena. If you're not trained for that arena you will not have a chance. But if people want to keep watching it ,and think they can do the same because they train MMA,Bjj or Muay Thai? Hey go ahead and believe that.

jeff

[Thai Bri]

But how is waving arms about in forms, wearing pyjamas and generally posing going to prepare someone for a real fight?

Agreed, MMA tournaments are not perfect preparation for the street. But they are still infinitley better than 99.9% of Kung Fu.

[kiddbjj]

...

i agree that many kung fu teachers are frauds and just money hungry. not all but many.

a student needs to look at what is the priamary purpose of the art they have chosen. obviously muay thai is 95% concerned with training people to fight full contact in the ring. this will have self defence crossover for the street but much like boxing the training is specific and directed at giving the fighter the best opportunity to perform and survive in the ring. same with wrestling, same with much of sport oriented bjj, same with judo etc.

obviously the big plus with these styles is that you get to compete, which in effect is a watered down version of real hand to hand warfare. just look into the face of competitors the next time muay thai or boxing or even football is on television next. these guys feel like they are going to war and will do whatever they can within the rules(and sometimes beyond the rules) to win that battle. pre competition nerves and doubts are pretty similar to the adrenaline you face on the street albeit in a smaller dose.

that being said many kung fu, karate schools are not primarily concerned with training for competition, nor are thay necessarily training specifically for the street, though there techniques may be street applicable. if they were primarily training for the street they would spend a lot of time on awareness, reading body language, verbal disuasion tactics, scenario training, weapons defence, multiples scenarios, using improvised weapons and on and on in the style of Geoff Thompson's programs.

most schools of kung fu exist to perpetuate their art. and they often contain many wonderful attributes that are not all specific to fighting but more likely related to getting the most out of life in general. i read that wing chun teacher randy williams said most people (except people who work as bouncers, cops, security etc.) will probably only be in five real fights in their lifetime. he said most will be less than this. he then went on to say that their is so much more than fighting ability to be derived from martial art study especially when some people are prepared to dedicate the MAJORITY of their lives to their art.

so what is your art/styles primary concern. the ring? the street? cause i think the question is at the heart of every styles reason for inception.

[jmd161]

But how is waving arms about in forms, wearing pyjamas and generally posing going to prepare someone for a real fight?

Agreed, MMA tournaments are not perfect preparation for the street. But they are still infinitley better than 99.9% of Kung Fu.

Sup Bri,


Those things are only part of kung fu training. Waving your arms and doing forms ,are not going to prepare you for fighting. You have to break down and drill those techniques in the forms. Forms are only a means to teach a group of techniques to someone. That was the best way to memorise that many techniques back in ancient times. There were no videos and such plus a real teacher is always better than a video.

Forms help someone to practice techniques on their own away from their teacher. If the form is taught properly it will show you the proper speed,strength,angles, and such. You are never supposed to fight using a form. You adapt the techniques into your own natural way of fighting ,but people that don't fully understand kung fu don't know that. People outside of kung fu don't realise that chinese martial arts in most cases is MMA. It's usually techniques from many diofferent styles that make up one.

CMA gives you a broad range of techniques. It does'nt focus on just a few like MMA. So there is alot more to learn ,which causes it to take longer to grasp then MMA.

jeff

[kiddbjj]

i have to interject just to say that i do think that many chinese arts are basically MMA oriented STRICTLY in terms of the techniques they have. it is quite normal for a kung fu style to not only have striking but also many grappling techniques as well as some ground stuff. yet they do spend much of the time on striking

[Thai Bri]

Can you tell me the bit where they train to be street effective?

[jmd161]

Can you tell me the bit where they train to be street effective?

No art trains you to be street effective!!

If anything they give you a better arsenal to carry into a street altercation ,but none will make you street effective.

How do you prepare for the streets?

The streets have no rules ,and are unpredictable. You never know what you're going to encounter in a street violence situation. It could be one on one or one on twenty. It could be you unarmed against an attacker with a gun or knife. So unless you're training these conditions ,your not training for the streets. Even if you do train these conditions. You still can't duplicate the violence of a street situation.

Anyone that is studying any art ,and says they're training for the streets ,is fooling themself. The only thing you can do is try to be aware of your surroundings ,and stay away from places or people you should not be around. Otherwise if street violence finds you ,you have to deal with it the best way you can.

jeff

[sherwinc]

(ex Jeet Kun Do) which is a combonation of karate and kungfu, with major influences of Shoalin culture as well as Mr. Lee himself.

Wrong!!!!!

there's no Karate in Jeet Kune Do, but Jeet Kune Do is a modified WingChun (KungFu)

There is also no Tae Kwon Do in Jeet Kune Do.....why?????

cause Karate and Tae Kwon Do is useless group of martial arts......

Muay Thai and boxing are also found in Jeet Kune Do

but 80% (mostly) Jeet Kune Do is a modified KungFu (from wingchun)

[sherwinc]

Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

Because too many people don't understand it , don't Spend enough time training it , and there are far too many fake and fruad teachers out there.

I can sit here and argue about it all day ,but why?!?!

People watch the UFC/Pride and think that's real fighting ,it's not!! It's close ,but it's still a sport with rules. There is no "NEXT" best thing to real fighting ,nothing prepares you for a real fight. It's funny how ppl watch the UFC/Pride and think that what they see there ,is what will happen in the street or real combat.

The people you see in the UFC/Pride are trained fighters for that arena. If you're not trained for that arena you will not have a chance. But if people want to keep watching it ,and think they can do the same because they train MMA,Bjj or Muay Thai? Hey go ahead and believe that.

jeff

and if you are my KungFu student, i will only teach you KungFu Forms(katas) and not its deep applications (6-to-more applications in each individual unique movements)

i will never teach you its deep applications but you have the right to break-the-code of every movement that i teach you,

to teach you its applications is not my concern, cause i already did my part....

but the key to break-the-code of every movement's application is to practice it with the 6 D's:
1. Deligent
2. Determination
3. Devotion
4. Dedication
5. Defense
and....
6. Destruction

but if you fail to break-the-code...... then you have the right to say "its a useless KungFu i learned, i cant apply it in actual combat"