William Cheung/Emin Boztepe

[2bob]

What that clip mostly said to me is that kung fu looks better in the movies than it does in real life.

[Sanitarium]

If that's true then obviously mr Gracie was scared of a true NHB fight.

although emin was obviously scared of gracie's skills too

[Tameo]

That Traditional Wing Chun is better than all other WC linages is pure bullshit. It's like saying that WC is better than all other styles.
Why do you believe that Tameo?

What I’ve seen in the other lineages is that their blocks, stances and footwork are much weaker than in the traditional Wing chun. First of all I’ve seen them stand with most of the weight on the back foot. This puts them off balance. In traditional wc the weight is distributed on both feet equally at all times except when kicking. Also look at the other lineages' guard! It’s supposed to be guarding the head like in the traditional lineage but theirs is really low (no wonder leung's nose looks like it has been broken 50times.) When doing a Lop Sao they over extend it making a huge opening. On the bong sao their elbows are bent too much. It can easily collapse. Some of the lineages have their wrist bent on the bong sao, which enables the opponent to easily grab it. Also in traditional wc they teach you to lift your feet when moving and to step toe-heel. This enables you to interrupt your movement better than if you were stepping heel-toe. In some non-traditional lineages of wc, they kind of slide with their feet instead of stepping. It might work on some ground surfaces, but what if you are on some rough surface that you can’t slide on? These are some of the things I’ve noticed about many of the non-traditional lineages out there. I'm sure there are a lot more weaknesses that I haven’t noticed.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

If that's true then obviously mr Gracie was scared of a true NHB fight.

although emin was obviously scared of gracie's skills too

no but because Boztepes laywer asked for a specific letter from the mayor, he just asked for the same if it took place where Boztepe wanted it

He didn't ask Cheung for such a letter when he attacked him in Germany and believe me it is just as illegal in Germany as it is in the states
He was lucky he didn't damage Cheung and that Cheung didn't report it to the police as an assualt.

Why didn't he just go upto the Graciegym and do the same as he did with Cheung, maybe because the Gracies are prepared for this and have dealt with these kind of challenges for most of their life

I have this weird feeling that he did this all just to become a name so he could forfil his dream of becoming a actor/moviestar, am I paranoid?

[Serrada]

What I’ve seen in the other lineages is that their blocks, stances and footwork are much weaker than in the traditional Wing chun. First of all I’ve seen them stand with most of the weight on the back foot. This puts them off balance. In traditional wc the weight is distributed on both feet equally at all times except when kicking. Also look at the other lineages' guard! It’s supposed to be guarding the head like in the traditional lineage but theirs is really low (no wonder leung's nose looks like it has been broken 50times.) When doing a Lop Sao they over extend it making a huge opening. On the bong sao their elbows are bent too much. It can easily collapse. Some of the lineages have their wrist bent on the bong sao, which enables the opponent to easily grab it. Also in traditional wc they teach you to lift your feet when moving and to step toe-heel. This enables you to interrupt your movement better than if you were stepping heel-toe. In some non-traditional lineages of wc, they kind of slide with their feet instead of stepping. It might work on some ground surfaces, but what if you are on some rough surface that you can’t slide on? These are some of the things I’ve noticed about many of the non-traditional lineages out there. I'm sure there are a lot more weaknesses that I haven’t noticed.

Yes Tameo you are correct. I trained in Wing Chun for two years later to find out I was training in Modified Wing Chun. I later trained in Traditional Wing Chun and there is a big difference. Now it all makes since of how a woman could effectively use the art to defend themselves. Anyway, this is the same age old argument and no Wing Chun player is going to think they train in a lesser system, only those who were able to jump to the other side like I was. I did not jumping I had to move with my family and as a result was fortunate.

MWC=Make the art work for you (Fight force with Force)
TWC= The art works for you (Don’t Fight force with Force)

I personally like to do less work.

[Hot Sauce]

What I’ve seen in the other lineages is that their blocks, stances and footwork are much weaker than in the traditional Wing chun. First of all I’ve seen them stand with most of the weight on the back foot. This puts them off balance. In traditional wc the weight is distributed on both feet equally at all times except when kicking. Also look at the other lineages' guard! It’s supposed to be guarding the head like in the traditional lineage but theirs is really low (no wonder leung's nose looks like it has been broken 50times.) When doing a Lop Sao they over extend it making a huge opening. On the bong sao their elbows are bent too much. It can easily collapse. Some of the lineages have their wrist bent on the bong sao, which enables the opponent to easily grab it. Also in traditional wc they teach you to lift your feet when moving and to step toe-heel. This enables you to interrupt your movement better than if you were stepping heel-toe. In some non-traditional lineages of wc, they kind of slide with their feet instead of stepping. It might work on some ground surfaces, but what if you are on some rough surface that you can’t slide on? These are some of the things I’ve noticed about many of the non-traditional lineages out there. I'm sure there are a lot more weaknesses that I haven’t noticed.

I have to point out that there is no way you can know for sure that TWC is more effective than other WC linages. For example: just beacause WT has the biggest kung fu organization in the world or one person says that WT footwork is way superior than TWC from his own experience, doesn't mean that it is that way.

Every WC linage have their own way of interpreting the concepts taught by their teachers. There is no right or wrong in th end, it's up to the practioners "application skill" that matters. Below I will describe why we do as we do (LT WT linage), the way you believe is less effective than TWC.

Weight distribution - It is true that we have 100% weight on the rear leg, however, bearing no weight at the front leg doesn't mean that the leg itself
is not putting on the floor, therefore we still have balance.
Kicks - since we don't have to shift our weight to our rear leg = the time for applying the kick decreases.

The guard - the man sao and wu sao are placed on the centre line since this is the shortest line between two humans and because it enables us to use the "wedge concept". It will make us able to attack along the vertical midline while protecting one of the "four gates". Basically the body is divided in to three levels height wise. The mid-level and upper-level are protected by the hands , thats why they are placed along the centre line which is in the centre of the upper and mid level. The guard is suppose to guard the centre line according to the WT concepts.

Lap Sao - I'm not sure how you can see that it makes a huge opening for the opponent. Could you elaborate.

Bong Sao - Springy force, the bong sao is supposed to collapse at certain times. I guess you don't know how to apply it, since you don't know much about it. The bong sao isn't "static", it doesn't stay that way for long. It should be collapsed while turning directrly after contact or perhaps become a tan sao etc.

Sliding - good point Tameo. I'm not 100 on this one but sliding is most important during the arrow steps and when hitting a target since we while we are hitting something we move our body at the same time so we need to stay in contact with the ground otherwise we won't have "maximum power" on the chainpunches.

[Hot Sauce]

no but because Boztepes laywer asked for a specific letter from the mayor, he just asked for the same if it took place where Boztepe wanted it

He didn't ask Cheung for such a letter when he attacked him in Germany and believe me it is just as illegal in Germany as it is in the states
He was lucky he didn't damage Cheung and that Cheung didn't report it to the police as an assualt.

Why didn't he just go upto the Graciegym and do the same as he did with Cheung, maybe because the Gracies are prepared for this and have dealt with these kind of challenges for most of their life

I have this weird feeling that he did this all just to become a name so he could forfil his dream of becoming a actor/moviestar, am I paranoid?

Boztepe maybe realised after the fight with Cheung that it would be wiser to get an agreement before the fight.

Or he was so confident that he wouldn't hurt Cheung and I also know that his intention was to takedown Cheung so that the risk of injuring him would be lower than while standing up. Well that's Boztepe's version anyway.

Rumors says that Cheung didn't report it to the police during his short visit to Germany because he wanted to cover it up ( he didn't know that Boztepe's had a cameraman with him at that time).

The Gracie's and Boztepe. He probably didn't choose to take the same route as he did with the Gracie's because it was he who challenged them and not the other way, as it was with Cheung. You can't compare Cheung and Gracie becaase they have two completely different fighting styles, whereas Cheung has the same as Boztepe (= chisao vs chisao). Another thing as I mentioned before is that Boztepe didn't want to hurt Cheung but with the Gracie's it was a whole diffferent thing, according to the martial arts newgroup at www.google.com.

As you wrote it could be that the Gracie's and Boztepe wanted to boost their presence in the media.

[Hot Sauce]

Yes Tameo you are correct. I trained in Wing Chun for two years later to find out I was training in Modified Wing Chun. I later trained in Traditional Wing Chun and there is a big difference. Now it all makes since of how a woman could effectively use the art to defend themselves. Anyway, this is the same age old argument and no Wing Chun player is going to think they train in a lesser system, only those who were able to jump to the other side like I was. I did not jumping I had to move with my family and as a result was fortunate.

MWC=Make the art work for you (Fight force with Force)
TWC= The art works for you (Don’t Fight force with Force)

I personally like to do less work.

This is completely wrong. All the so called "modified Wing Chun" as William Cheung likes to define it, do NOT use force against force. A common WC saying is that you only need to be so strong that you can push yourself away from a wall. Anyway fighting force with force is against the WT concepts, which is a so called modified wing chun system.

[Tameo]

Hot Sauce how long have you trained in WT/VT? Just wondering.

[Hot Sauce]

Almost six months now, so I'm still a newbie or as they like to put it, at basic level.

[Serrada]

This is completely wrong. All the so called "modified Wing Chun" as William Cheung likes to define it, do NOT use force against force. A common WC saying is that you only need to be so strong that you can push yourself away from a wall. Anyway fighting force with force is against the WT concepts, which is a so called modified wing chun system.

I’ve been training in Wing Chun since 1988. I started under Moy Yat lineage then trained in William Cheung lineage and then under NAWCA Phillip Holder. So I think I have a leg up on you. Now my comment about the force with force was a figure of speech for the record. I’m not going to sit here and debate which style is better b/c it’s a matter of opinion. But you cant have a good opinion unless you try both. Go yourself to one of Cheung’s seminars, if he comes around again. The Moy Yat WC/WT I learned is very advantages for a person of Boztepe stature. You come charging in like a bull compared to Cheung style WC. Boztepe WC does not get off the centerline to the blind side as economically as the Cheung WC I learned. Bruce Lee found the Moy Yat/Boztepe etc. style’s shortcomings and made up for them with JKD. Now I hate to do this to you but next time your at the book store, bc I know you wont buy it, read the comparison of JKD and WC by William Cheung. It gives examples of TWC and JKD and Moy Yat/Boztepe etc. style. See if it makes since to you.

[Hot Sauce]

I am not claiming that Leung Ting's Wing Tsun is the best style or linage within the WC family or anything similiar. As you wrote it's a matter of opinion and I agree that you have to try both (WT and TWC), unfortunatly it is not possible for to try TWC since their organization is not, from what I know, established here in Sweden, although I would like to try it sometime when the opputunity comes.

I disagree with you on the Bruce Lee subject. When Bruce Lee was still young he moved to the USA and therefore he couldn't continue to study the art of Wing Chun since there were no Wing Chun masters at that time present in the country. When Bruce Lee moved back to Hong Kong after his acting career had started he was unable to continue studying Wing Chun with Yip Man. He didn't learn everything in the WC system when he moved to the states and never did afterwards, therefore he had to incorporate other slightly modified techniques from other styles (ie. Western Boxing and fencing.) to his fighting skills. I believe there are theories on why Bruce Lee did as he did, why he couldn't apply the WC concepts and was forced to come up with new ways to improve his skills.

I would like to read more about the comparison of JKD and WC by William Cheung but it is not possible for at the time. I'm a poor highschool student that can't afford to buy everybook that I want to read through the net, and the local bookstores and libraries do not have a wide selection of Martial Arts books written in English.

[Serrada]

Hot Sauce: I believe you are correct Bruce Lee did not have the time in WC the others did and that is also why he may have made some changes. Though, he did train much more diligently than some may portray. He also was so skilled as an athlete he picked it up much faster than senior students of Yip man.

Anyway, keep doing what you are doing and don’t get close minded about the whole WC thing. What you are doing is not in anyway bad. When you have the opportunity get some books and do some training with other WC organizations. Keep what works for you. Once I trained with GM Phillip Holder at the NAWCA, he showed me what I feel is a more modern day approach to the two systems of WC I had previously learned. I took that concept and started training in various Filipino MA to incorporate more modern day weapons training. Ie. Short stick, knife and staff training a more today training than the stick, butterfly swords and dragon pole of WC. In the process I found FMA empty hand to be similar and flow into the WC concepts I learned. Anyway, good luck.

[IPON]

Though, he did train much more diligently than some may portray. He also was so skilled as an athlete he picked it up much faster than senior students of Yip man.

This was exactly the reason (it is alleged) that Lee was asked to leave the school, jealousy, While he did not know as much technically as other students what he knew he knew well. I also agree that a large aspect of Lee's journey through JKD was due to not finishing WC (not all but a good portion). I always think it is funny when I see WC the art practiced by Bruce Lee when these are the same people that wanted him to leave the school becuase of his talent.

I of course was not there to verify and neither were the people that told me the story so who knows. I heard one story about Lee after creating JKD and going back to HK met with Yip Man to discuss his new style, they sparred and Lee was embarrassed. Another, was that toward the end Lee went back to WC and practed sui lim tao daily. Again who can say what is true.

The point of saying this, as Serrada stated, we should not have a closed mind to understanding WC, Yip Man was not the only lineage of WC there are other and there are slight differences (and as in society, difference should not always be qualified as good or bad, right or wrong.....difference is just different). I generally feel that most MAs are good but the instructors can certainily be poor and as students seeking development and consumers was should always be mindful of that fact and question......it really is the best way to learn.

Just my $0.02 for what is worth.

[Thai Bri]

Surprisingly, this is all quite interesting. Apart from the unsubstantiated theories about why Bruce Lee didn't carry on with WC. For my own part, I'm sure he would have thrown himself back into it at the earliest opportunitiy if he felt that it warranted further attention.

One of the underlying themes that has emerged for me is how much of this discussion about different interpretations of Wing Chun is how they fair against each other. Shouldn't the point be how well they prepare you against Billy Thug outside the pub?

Mind you, even I have to admit that sherwinc wasn't talking total bollocks for once.