Afraid of MMA competition

[darrianation]

KungFu is a century proven martial arts - its effectiveness.......

yesterday - you could not easily put to jail when you kill someone on such tournaments.....

but now????? retesting the art will lead you to enter jail...... understand?????

This is why you can’t go around beating people up just for the hell of it, or to prove yourself or your styles superiority. That’s why special venues have been created for this. Venues like the UFCs and or other near NHB competitions. Are they perfect? No! If a Kung Fu person looses does it mean Kung Fu is inferior? NO!

So then what does it prove? It proves what works and what doesn’t.

In these competitions you rarely see a see a traditional martial artist like a Kung Fu practitioner or a karate practitioner perform fighting that is recognizable to the system in which he represents.

You don’t see fancy stances, intricate foot movement or patterns. You don’t see butterfly kicks, or fancy CHI techniques. Why? Well maybe it’s because they don’t work.

However systems like BJJ, vale Tudo and Muay Thai/kick boxers look like the systems they represent (at least till they get taken down).

To be competitive The KF, and Karate guys have to modify a lot why? Don’t tell me it’s because your techniques are too deadly.

I have witnessed friends of mine or people who I knew who were Kung Fu practitioners or karatekas who were involved in street fights. The one thing that I noticed is that even if they won the fight they did not look like they were using Kung Fu/Karate. It was a whole lot of wild punches’ grabbing and holding on. In none of these fights did anyone go to the hospital due to their injuries. So again, where are those deadly techniques? Why did the KF guys in the street fight look just like the KF guys do in the octagon with no recognizable form?

So if a Kung Fu fighter can defend himself without using his so called deadly techniques in the street, then why can’t he go into the octagon and do the same?

Tell me why a KF fighter cannot go into the ring and be successful use his Kung Fu without the eye jabs/throat strikes, and biting?

Kung fu fighters can and will be successful in the UFC’s, but not until they change how they train and what they train. Most of the current fighters have already done this. The traditional guys have too also, why?

Because those fancy stances, intricate footwork, and complicated techniques they taught you in the dojo just don’t work in reality. In reality fight plans can be hard to stick to especially when you are up against a fighter like a one of the Gracie’s, or a chuck Liddel, or a Randy Coultier (sorry, names may not be misspelled).

However in all fairness winning or loosing in these types of competitions do not reflect the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of any given system. But it does show what works and what doesn’t. They do show that directness and simplicity work well, at least for the fighters who win.

[darrianation]

What has the UFCs and other MMA competitions shown us about what works?

What works well: Directness, Simplicity.

Examples of what works well:
Striking- Jabs, palm strikes, clinches, knees and elbows, and leg kicks.

Grappling- double leg takedowns, trips, mount and side mount then pound away (elbows, palms, knees, and etc), armbars and certain chokes.

What doesn’t work well: Indirect attacks or defenses, complicated techniques.

Example of things that don’t work well: Circular blocks, circular strikes (except hooks), gunting (a block meant to cause damage or to demobilize the offending limb), trapping, fancy footwork, blocking while simultaneously striking, intricate or flowery techniques. Kicking- Jump kicks, spinning kicks, high kicks pretty much all kicks (except the leg kicks and the push kick).

These more complicated techniques in the second group may work well in the dojo or training hall against a compliant partner but not so well in reality. Of course there is luck, or that 1 in 10’000 MA practitioner who can actually pull it off now and again on a somewhat consistent level. In any case these techniques are not high percentage in the real world.

This is a short list but I think it’s enough to get the idea.

[Thai Bri]

This thread is out there on the Planet Venus.

[sherwinc]

“There is only one true master of KungFu that is the master of one’s self. As your own master you may help guide others to their own self-mastery”. Darrianation

Very True !!!!!

[sherwinc]

This is why you can’t go around beating people up just for the hell of it, or to prove yourself or your styles superiority. That’s why special venues have been created for this. Venues like the UFCs and or other near NHB competitions. Are they perfect? No! If a Kung Fu person looses does it mean Kung Fu is inferior? NO!

So then what does it prove? It proves what works and what doesn’t.

In these competitions you rarely see a see a traditional martial artist like a Kung Fu practitioner or a karate practitioner perform fighting that is recognizable to the system in which he represents.

You don’t see fancy stances, intricate foot movement or patterns. You don’t see butterfly kicks, or fancy CHI techniques. Why? Well maybe it’s because they don’t work.

However systems like BJJ, vale Tudo and Muay Thai/kick boxers look like the systems they represent (at least till they get taken down).

To be competitive The KF, and Karate guys have to modify a lot why? Don’t tell me it’s because your techniques are too deadly.

I have witnessed friends of mine or people who I knew who were Kung Fu practitioners or karatekas who were involved in street fights. The one thing that I noticed is that even if they won the fight they did not look like they were using Kung Fu/Karate. It was a whole lot of wild punches’ grabbing and holding on. In none of these fights did anyone go to the hospital due to their injuries. So again, where are those deadly techniques? Why did the KF guys in the street fight look just like the KF guys do in the octagon with no recognizable form?

So if a Kung Fu fighter can defend himself without using his so called deadly techniques in the street, then why can’t he go into the octagon and do the same?

Tell me why a KF fighter cannot go into the ring and be successful use his Kung Fu without the eye jabs/throat strikes, and biting?

Kung fu fighters can and will be successful in the UFC’s, but not until they change how they train and what they train. Most of the current fighters have already done this. The traditional guys have too also, why?

Because those fancy stances, intricate footwork, and complicated techniques they taught you in the dojo just don’t work in reality. In reality fight plans can be hard to stick to especially when you are up against a fighter like a one of the Gracie’s, or a chuck Liddel, or a Randy Coultier (sorry, names may not be misspelled).

However in all fairness winning or loosing in these types of competitions do not reflect the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of any given system. But it does show what works and what doesn’t. They do show that directness and simplicity work well, at least for the fighters who win.

It doesnt need to prove that KungFu is really good or retesting the art cause it is already a century proven, and kungfu anscestors already prove it before there were no jails for you to enter once you kill your opponent,

[sherwinc]

So if a Kung Fu fighter can defend himself without using his so called deadly techniques in the street, then why can’t he go into the octagon and do the same?

Tell me why a KF fighter cannot go into the ring and be successful use his Kung Fu without the eye jabs/throat strikes, and biting?

cause the frequently hand attacks that they use in the octagon is Jab, Cross, Hook, Straight, Roundhouse, and Uppercut...... these are only the basics and these are not the intermediate and not advance moves...... and these are very easy to intercept.....

yet the most simplest form of hand attacks are the short distance yet STRAIGHT HAND ATTACKS such as:
1. The Sun Fist of WingChun
2. the Chiee Punch of NgoChoKun and ChiDianBun
(these are the simplest, direct, and to the point)

but.....

but if the opponent is too hard to defeat using this simplest, direct, and to the point hand attack...... then you switch your hand attack from that direct to ANGLE (Angle Hand attacks 45 degrees or 90 degrees or 135 degrees angle hand attacks) and SEMI-CIRCLE HAND ATTACKS.....

then......

reserve your most advanced hand attacks such as CIRCLING HAND ATTACKS to your most advance/hard to beat opponent.....

Note:
the secret to a powerful hand attack is a Circling Motion, yet Straight/Direct Hand Attacks is the most speediest (the shortest distance between point A to point B is a Straight Line yet it is easy to intercept)

and that is the reason why - in KungFu - When your hand meets my hand, your hand is already my hand

and thats the reason why - in UFC - you have to block your opponents punch using your head and your body "Human Dummy Theory"

Note:
Practicing the "Human Dummy Theory" for 4 years - you will earn a certificate of a BRAIN DAMAGE cause the head and body are not capable to tolerate enourmous amount of hits by the power punch of the opponent.....

since you intercept your opponents punch and kick using your head and your body......

A Simple Experiment:
when you wake up everyday, try to smash your head powerfully to a hard wall for at least 4 years..... then after 4 years you will become a veteran brain damage......

same also that you block your opponents punch using your head and your body......

Note:
perhaps, no emphasize of forearm smashing against opponents forearm as a defensive moves

[jules]

funny how many TMAers say "Martial Arts are not about competition or fighting... ect" yet Yip Man's boys were always getting into rooftop challenge matches. There have been MA tournaments for centuries where differnt people from different styles were actully proving their styles... But hey why do the honerable thing like actually proving your style when you can just say that you can kill people with "chi blows" and charge schmucks for classes?

[SanShou]

Kung fu can win against any MA be it in the ring or outside the ring. Beside most kung fu people have more important things to do like finishing college or university to become successful business executives rather than to become mindless fighters.

very good point konghan, I agree with you on that.
Don't be concerned with kids just wanting to sound tough and acting tough on their computer screens, very few of them would be capable of much.

[jules]

Kung fu can win against any MA be it in the ring or outside the ring. Beside most kung fu people have more important things to do like finishing college or university to become successful business executives rather than to become mindless fighters.

Wait... Are you saying that Kimura was a "Mindless fighter"? How about Mas Ohyama? How about Kano? How about Yip-Man? After all he encouraged his students to try their stuff on the streets. A true martial artist has enough honor not to hide behind some bull crap excuse. He stand up by his style and is willing to defend it and prove it.

sherwinc,
If kung fu guys are so good then they can prove their "strength" in competion rather than having their groupies talk about it online.

[yentao]

I am sick and tired of hearing all you Traditional Martial arts guys and gals and especially you guys in Kung Fu say that “Ring fighting or fighting in the UFCs is not self-defense. I can’t use my art because all my techniques are Illegal”. I have heard this in thread after thread and post after post. This is a cop out and a crock of shit!

You mean to tell me in your MA class you use Illegal strikes or deadly strikes against your class mates during sparring? So you don’t unless it is semi/light or simulated contact Huh? Do you spar using your art? Then why in the hell can’t you do that against someone in the UFC, Pride, K1, or any MMA event?

If you are using light contact/semi contact simulated contact, or pre-arranged contact then you are training wrong! Its okay for beginners (training wheels) but at some point it’s time to put away the Gerber’s and begin eating meat! Maybe you need to find a different system.

I am not saying you should go around gouging eyes out in class; it’s just if you can spar in class without taking your partners eyes out then why do you feel you have to do it in the ring?

You are also assuming that just because someone is a MMA competition fighter they don’t’ know the dirty Illegal stuff. Listen eye pokes and gouges, kidney blows, brain stem and throat strikes, and etc are not a secret. And I have news for you neither are groin strikes.

If you can fight your classmates without using the “deadly stuff” while still performing your perspective art then you can enter the octagon and do the same thing. The same things that limit you in the octagon (rules) also limit them!

When you spar your classmates (full contact) you are limited by rules for safety, so don’t tell me you can’t do that in the ring, you do it every day in class. So quite your f***ing whining and put up or shut up!

IF I FAIL MY COLLEGE DIPLOMA I WILL JOIN IN UFC. I don't have time for such things right now i'm on my studies. BUt if you like I can always fight to learn from i guy like you. It appears you know so much huh?

[konghan]

Those UFC type of tournaments are not really that great. They`er good entertainment sport. Most of the time they`ll stay on ground for minutes & its that "third eye" the fighter`s corners that are yelling instructions informing their fighters what to do becuase their corners serve as spotters to spot an openning or an opportunity to execute a technique. Otherwise, those fighters will be on ground for the whole boute & the winner will be the one who has more stamina to keep rolling around the ground.

I wonder, take away that "third eye" how will they perform?

Kung fu tournaments don`t allow those kind of "satellite couching" once the fight starts corners are not allowed to yell out instructions to their fighters.

Also, try removing those ropes or the cage, fight in a san shou or kung fu arena where the arena is not enclose in a cage or rope. Where in part of loosing a boute is getting thrown or falling out of the arena. Part of winning is outsmarting your opponent having him fall off the ring is part of kung fu strategy but its less "entertaining" to watch & fight ends fast.

[Dim Wit Moc]

In reviewing my posts, I just realized something that could be regarded as an inconsistency. I have proclaimed my respect for all martial arts, but also said that there is a classical mess and that taking some things seriously could get you killed. The flowing movements of some kung fu styles are beautiful to watch. If, and I repeat if, some of these things cannot be applied to combat, they are still beautiful art forms. Wushu is fun to watch. Maybe an old lady practicing Tai Chi cannot kick butt, but she is getting good exercise, and it is the right thing for her. I do know there are tai chi and other kung fu people who hide effective techniques behind the non effective ones purposely in order to confuse and ambush. Some of the stances I was taught in kung fu left me open to attacks. I appreciate the heavy boxing and grappling emphasis I have received in kenpo. It helps me keep vital parts of the body protected. If someone can use the twisted or lunge stance or whatever in combat, then I am all for them. I will reserve judgement until the results come in. Again, when people enjoy any useful and productive activity, I can respect that.

Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee did a lot of experimenting to see what worked and what didn't. These were too very bright guys (although Lee didn't respect Lewis' brain power), who came up with some interesting and generally accurate conclusions. It must be remembered that Lewis looks at things from his very aggressive, charging bull style. Tangent, if you read Lewis' stuff, Lee was wrong about him. He is smart and articulate in addition be being one of the all time greats. The problem I have with this is that some people can make certain things work, where other people can't. There has to be a certain amount of latitude for individuality when criticizing technique of any sort. One man's junk can be another man's treasure in martial arts or anything else. If someone can show me certain kung fu move is effective for them, then great. If it isn't, then I can respect it because it is part of their art.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Kung fu tournaments don`t allow those kind of "satellite couching" once the fight starts corners are not allowed to yell out instructions to their fighters.

And KF coaches are so stupid they haven't figured a way around it

Come on man it isn't allowed at karate too, but place someone at the frontrow and he is allowed to shout

I was 20-30 meters away 10 meters higher and managed to shout instructions to my students ( well everybody turned his head and people remearked that I could shout very loud, I wasn't shouting yet, I raised
my voice)

btw the average age in MMA is higher than you would expect it's around 30
SO the BS about KF people having to finish their studies first ( as if other people do NOT finish their studies), I would hope one would be finished by then

[darrianation]

The street VS the Octagon.

San shou, Konghan - this thread is not about proving toughness.

I honestly believe far to many traditional martial arts live in theory and their training for the most part is done in a vacuum. This thread is about taking theory out of the vacuum and putting it into a live and dynamic world.

The best way to do this would be to fight in the street in different environments, like picking fights inside of dark bars, in a dark parking lot on the asphalt, and driving up to a drug dealer and when he comes to your window start punching him through the window. Okay there are obvious reasons why we don’t prove things or test our training in this way. If we did we could be making a trip to the hospital, jail, or the morgue.

The next best way is in competition. I am not talking about point fighting but the UFCs, or other similar events. These events are the closest things to a street fight that we can get with out breaking the law. It will test many things, mostly it will test the skills and the toughness (mental and physical) of the individual fighters but not necessarily the art they represent.

But one of the important things that it does test that is measurable and quantifiable is witch techniques work on a relatively consistent basis and witch techniques don’t. These guys want to win. They train hard and the cross train in other systems. But they only want to learn the things that have been proven to work not the whole system (basically taking the best from different systems).

If trapping worked well and consistently then you would see more of it. If gunting or complicated flowery movements and techniques worked you would see more of them. Even if backward jumping flying upside down kicks worked well and consistently then you would see more of that.

Now not all of us have the desire to get into the octagon with Chuck Liddel, Randy Couture, Bas Rutten, and etc. We may be to busy with school, career, or just too old. So the next best thing is to watch, and study these guys in what they do, what works and what doesn’t.

If you see someone put their hand in the fire and they get badly burned, do you have to do it to prove you will get burned? No, absolutely not. You can watch and learn from these guys, but you have to be willing to except the outcomes.

How else can we find these things out? Stop the pre-arranged crap in your school. Go for live action drills instead. Create drills that employ spontaneity and chaos. Attacks should not be predictable and partners should not cooperate.

Anyway I personally have found out for myself that many things taught to me in my traditional MA training really don’t work so well out side the vacuum of theory and the dojo walls.

[konghan]

In reviewing my posts, I just realized something that could be regarded as an inconsistency. I have proclaimed my respect for all martial arts, but also said that there is a classical mess and that taking some things seriously could get you killed. The flowing movements of some kung fu styles are beautiful to watch. If, and I repeat if, some of these things cannot be applied to combat, they are still beautiful art forms. Wushu is fun to watch. Maybe an old lady practicing Tai Chi cannot kick butt, but she is getting good exercise, and it is the right thing for her. I do know there are tai chi and other kung fu people who hide effective techniques behind the non effective ones purposely in order to confuse and ambush. Some of the stances I was taught in kung fu left me open to attacks. I appreciate the heavy boxing and grappling emphasis I have received in kenpo. It helps me keep vital parts of the body protected. If someone can use the twisted or lunge stance or whatever in combat, then I am all for them. I will reserve judgement until the results come in. Again, when people enjoy any useful and productive activity, I can respect that.

Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee did a lot of experimenting to see what worked and what didn't. These were too very bright guys (although Lee didn't respect Lewis' brain power), who came up with some interesting and generally accurate conclusions. It must be remembered that Lewis looks at things from his very aggressive, charging bull style. Tangent, if you read Lewis' stuff, Lee was wrong about him. He is smart and articulate in addition be being one of the all time greats. The problem I have with this is that some people can make certain things work, where other people can't. There has to be a certain amount of latitude for individuality when criticizing technique of any sort. One man's junk can be another man's treasure in martial arts or anything else. If someone can show me certain kung fu move is effective for them, then great. If it isn't, then I can respect it because it is part of their art.

Well said, I agree 100%