Afraid of MMA competition

[konghan]

And KF coaches are so stupid they haven't figured a way around it

Come on man it isn't allowed at karate too, but place someone at the frontrow and he is allowed to shout

I was 20-30 meters away 10 meters higher and managed to shout instructions to my students ( well everybody turned his head and people remearked that I could shout very loud, I wasn't shouting yet, I raised
my voice)

btw the average age in MMA is higher than you would expect it's around 30
SO the BS about KF people having to finish their studies first ( as if other people do NOT finish their studies), I would hope one would be finished by then

In real combat there is nobody out there to couch you how to fight or scout your opponents opennings for you to execute a technique.

In san shou arena, one of the original rule was fall out of the ring one losses the boute. Then they change it to " once fall off the ring one loses that round, then they change it again " once fall off the ring one loses a point". And all this is to accomodate entertainement sport funs not much about martial art skill. And in UFC, they took away head butting something that is good to use when in close quarter fighting like grappling or rolling around the floor or how about bitting?

[konghan]

San shou, Konghan - this thread is not about proving toughness.

I honestly believe far to many traditional martial arts live in theory and their training for the most part is done in a vacuum. This thread is about taking theory out of the vacuum and putting it into a live and dynamic world.

The best way to do this would be to fight in the street in different environments, like picking fights inside of dark bars, in a dark parking lot on the asphalt, and driving up to a drug dealer and when he comes to your window start punching him through the window. Okay there are obvious reasons why we don’t prove things or test our training in this way. If we did we could be making a trip to the hospital, jail, or the morgue.

The next best way is in competition. I am not talking about point fighting but the UFCs, or other similar events. These events are the closest things to a street fight that we can get with out breaking the law. It will test many things, mostly it will test the skills and the toughness (mental and physical) of the individual fighters but not necessarily the art they represent.

But one of the important things that it does test that is measurable and quantifiable is witch techniques work on a relatively consistent basis and witch techniques don’t. These guys want to win. They train hard and the cross train in other systems. But they only want to learn the things that have been proven to work not the whole system (basically taking the best from different systems).

If trapping worked well and consistently then you would see more of it. If gunting or complicated flowery movements and techniques worked you would see more of them. Even if backward jumping flying upside down kicks worked well and consistently then you would see more of that.

Now not all of us have the desire to get into the octagon with Chuck Liddel, Randy Couture, Bas Rutten, and etc. We may be to busy with school, career, or just too old. So the next best thing is to watch, and study these guys in what they do, what works and what doesn’t.

If you see someone put their hand in the fire and they get badly burned, do you have to do it to prove you will get burned? No, absolutely not. You can watch and learn from these guys, but you have to be willing to except the outcomes.

How else can we find these things out? Stop the pre-arranged crap in your school. Go for live action drills instead. Create drills that employ spontaneity and chaos. Attacks should not be predictable and partners should not cooperate.

Anyway I personally have found out for myself that many things taught to me in my traditional MA training really don’t work so well out side the vacuum of theory and the dojo walls.

UFC tournament sis about toughness, secondly in a real street situation there is no ring to keep fighters inside, if they`er on the ground they`ll probably roll around the entire block until they bump into a police car. And in the street there is no second voice yelling out instructions on what technique to use or scouting opennings.

The reason for this thread is about why very few or no KF fighters join UFC? UFC went to Japan, Japanese fighters participate, take it to China & Chinese fighters will participate. The problem is that once they see KF fighters using something 'unstereotypical" techniques that are not supposedly consider to be kung fu they dismissed it as " thats` not kung fu". What many of kung fu bashers here want to see are the movie or fantasy type of kung fu technique. Thats` why when they see san shou, their conclusion is " that`s muay thai + takedown" when they see a takedown they say " thats`s grappling or wrestling" and for them none of those are suppossedly be kung fu techniques?

[IPON]

I honestly believe far to many traditional martial arts live in theory and their training for the most part is done in a vacuum. This thread is about taking theory out of the vacuum and putting it into a live and dynamic world.

I definately agree to a point. I still believe it is not always the technique or the style but the amount of wholely unqualified instructors. Though even stating that it brings us back to your original point.


With MMA, I think part of the problem is again the assumption, they use what works in the context of the combat sport. They are not worried about weapons and they are not trying to kill or maim each other. You rarely see foot breaks, strikes to the throat etc and they are wearing gloves which would not be an option in a real fight (and was not in teh original UFC). As stated many times it is a sport so there is strategy and scouting. If it were so "real world" people would just fight, they wouldn't need months of prep time (though I know some had only days notice).

I feel, generally speaking, that ppl are looking for answers and MMA is only part. But IMHO if the people are looking for answers it is probably becuase they are not getting in alot of fights .... which is good!! But everybody seems to look for the ultimate MA and there will never be an answerfor that question. Humans only have so much ability, not everyone is dedicated or has the ability to smell blood (the eye of the tiger). These are huge factors. The element of suprise, even when standing face to face, MMA can't account for these and there is no reason it should, it is a sport. I have often said that grappling is not for everyone not becuase ppl are not phsyically capable of grappling, but becuase it is quite unique and you truely must have a love for it to make it truely work. KF is very difficult to learn, it takes time...time that most would rather not spend in training. MMAers may learn a little BJJ and some MT but they are not not master of either style. So it not fair to say they only use techniques that work when most have very little exposure. looking through the bios they have trained as little as 2 years and maybe in the UFC. Why do I state that, well it is hard to believe that UFC and like events are the final answer when you have people that are essentially neophytes, but good sluggers. Now the direction of UFC matches seems to be standup not on the ground. I think this is the same misconception that is in JKD. "JKD is the best because Bruce took the best out of all stlyes" which is simply garbage. But even if it were tru it does not make it the best style simply an effective style not unbeatable just effective similar to MMA.

PPl think if they study BJJ or MT that they are immune to a basic boxer (which I will maintain is still the most common advisary on the street)....completly wrong. Will they be better place than not learning these arts maybe depending on the training and the "heart" a person has when fighting. So my point is MMA has shown alot but the only true point MMA has shown that a level of training should be maintained to be a competent MAist.

I have been in numerous fights an done things am not to proud of, but I can tell you I have not been involved in one style which I have could use 100% of the techiques (well I geuss boxing could be an excetion). but I learn the system and move on. I have never been impressed with BJJ use of teh guard, for example, but I do plan to study BJJ and I will learn all I am taught and not use if it doesn't fit. In Hakido, there are some techniques that I would never consider using, doen't mean they are not valid just not for me. but this does not affect my fighting ability.

Anyway, I am rambling and I do agree with the essence of your post just my $.02

[Toudiyama[NL]]

The reason for this thread is about why very few or no KF fighters join UFC? UFC went to Japan, Japanese fighters participate, take it to China & Chinese fighters will participate.

Sorry but the japanese were already playing with MMA and a lot of them embraced the full contact aspect long before that, European Kickboxing sprung from there

[Tom Yum]

Sorry but the japanese were already playing with MMA and a lot of them embraced the full contact aspect long before that, European Kickboxing sprung from there

Judo and karate were often taught together in the olden days, weren't they? As were kenpo/jujitsu, I think.

[konghan]

Sorry but the japanese were already playing with MMA and a lot of them embraced the full contact aspect long before that, European Kickboxing sprung from there

That is very true, same with kung fu in fact historically many karatekas have been sparring with kung fu fighters in China & vis versa. But have there been any public declaration as to which art is better? no, early masters respect each other & understood that challenges which is very often during those days is not only to prove which art is better but it is to improve oneself & understand its own limitations.

And with humbleness, many Japanese masters have recognize the superiority of kung fu that they travel to China espacially in the Fujian province to learn from great kung fu masters & incorporate many kung fu techniques & training into their own system.

[darrianation]

early masters respect each other & understood that challenges which is very often during those days is not only to prove which art is better but it is to improve oneself & understand its own limitations.

This is what I have been talking about this whole time! Understanding our defficiencies and to improveing them is what needs to be done.

In our own little worlds behind our dojo doors we often forget that training is a dynamic perocess and we need to get out there and prove ourselves (find out where our weakneses, and where our strengths are).

[Dim Wit Moc]

TCMA has never been a static and unchanging thing. Otherwise, Bodiharma's movements would have been the end all. Forgive me if I am too lazy to look up the names, but I think the point will get across anyway. The individual who studied the mantis did so to make changes to improve his kung fu. The guy in jail who watched the troop of monkies and studied their fighting carefully, caused changes to happen. No matter what animal was studied, and its "spirit" implemented, it was done so to increase fighting ability. The Kung Fu San Soo guys seem to have contempt for animal forms, but their system is a very effective form of combat kung fu.

If Bruce Lee could talk to us to day there is no way he would say that by 1973 they had done everything that needs to be done. I have not studied Jeet Kune Do per se, but if experience and change is what they preach, then, in a way, I am a Jeet Kune Do guy. Lee would probably say that this dynamic change will go on until the return of Christ. Many very effective combat systems exist today. In a way martial arts isn't rocket science, because we may have all the kicks and punches we need right now. But in a way it is rocket science, because theory and testing of theory will and should continue for years to come.

I have not run across any stories from China where grappling was a major part of a system. It may be there, but I can only go by what I have read and heard. Since there has been much scientific research put into effective grappling, what not steal it for kung fu and make it part of snake movements?

In a way I am a politician. When I say I appreciate all martial arts, it isn't because I want to kiss everyone's baby to get their votes. This is a heartfelt respect. If a big bruiser type wants a very direct way to martial success with very unfancy and direct techniques, I can understand this. It takes years of patience to truly master a kung fu system, and not everyone has this patience. The direct way to mayhem is quicker and easier to learn.

On the other hand, a true, and I stress true, kung fu master is going to be very successful in combat. This is a person whose ego has taken a back seat, and they truly know what they are capable of. If the purity of their system has needed additions to deal with modern realities, they have done it.

[Mister]

Example of things that don’t work well: Circular blocks, circular strikes (except hooks), gunting (a block meant to cause damage or to demobilize the offending limb), trapping, fancy footwork, blocking while simultaneously striking, intricate or flowery techniques. Kicking- Jump kicks, spinning kicks, high kicks pretty much all kicks (except the leg kicks and the push kick).

I disagree. Nowadays in MMA you see high kicks working all the time, usually they knock people out... Just look at guys like Cro Cop, Yves, Liddlel, Sakuraba, Rickson, Pete Williams, Vitor Belfort, Gary Goodridge... All have used high kicks effectively in MMA.

[darrianation]

Toudy thanks for bringing the whole challenge thing up. I have known this but it never came into my head thoughout my discourse in this thread.

Ipon thanks for your comments. I agree there are other things missing too. I have discussed quite a bit of other things in other threads.

One of the points I make a big fuss over in methodology. I have said this over and over in other threads it’s not always about the techniques. There are many things that it’s about but method of training is another one.

Also if we only learn and train in our little dojos and do the same drills and spar the same people day after day week after week we become stagnant our growth will become hampered. We have to get out of our little box and explore and experiment with new things, new people, and new ideas.

How do we do this without getting our windpipes crushed, or an eye put out?

We look at things like the UFCs, Pride, and other NHB events as alternatives, but you are right not every can get in or even wants too. So what are some other alternatives to the tourney’s?

You know me I always have some ideas and some are even good (or least okay). We can hold our own similar versions to those MMA competitions even if it’s just our own students. Change up the rules, get out those mats, and throw on some gear and rally go at it any thing goes (with in reason). The over forty population probably won’t like this one.

We can invite outside people from other MAs into your our dojos to do live action drills to mix up the responses. Continue to play the “what if” game and seek to improve.

Live drills are a good way to improve.

A live drill is spontaneous, unpredictable and dynamic. They are done at real speeds. I call it street speed.

A good drill for example would be to have an attacker and have of course a defender. The attacker will be told (out of ear shot of the defender) to start by saying “what are you looking at”? Then go in for a push then immediately go for a double leg take down.

The defender doesn’t know what to expect. He just responds.

*Protective equipment can be worn so the participants can go full speed with power.
* The attacker can be told what to do, or he can choose his own attacks.

One of my favorites is to have one of the other student’s walks up and start talking smack. The defender will believe this is the actual attacker while the real attacker will sneak up from behind and attack.

Many attacks start with words and often time the first strike will be a push. But first strikes can often be punches, clinches, takedowns, or just about anything. So I use all of these a lot in my training. However, use your imaginations to come up with many different drills.

Live weapons drills can be applied the same way.

A good example of a weapons drill:

Attacker will place a knife in his belt, sheathed or unsheathed, or it can be concealed. The defender may not even know the attacker has a knife.

The armed attacker will attack, using hand/feet/clinches/grappling, etc. The unarmed defender will defend with hand/feet/clinches/grappling, etc. Armed attacker will wait until defender is preoccupied with defenses then at what ever time the attacker deems fit to draw and attack with knife he is free to do so.

Note: Attacker does not have to use the knife it is his choice. The defender will not know when, how, or if the knife will be deployed.

Knife wrestling drill: Both partners will take hold of a knife. The whistle blows and they fight over the knife. Twisting the knife to cut fingers, hands, and wrists are allowed, punches/kicking/grappling is allowed. The one who gets complete control of the knife is the winner or he can continue to attack and the other guy has to defend.

* Live weapons training should be done with safety guns, knives, and etc.

The students learn to expect the unexpected; they increase their awareness, and understand the unpredictability the face in the street.

[Thai Bri]

On the other hand, a true, and I stress true, kung fu master is going to be very successful in combat. This is a person whose ego has taken a back seat, and they truly know what they are capable of. If the purity of their system has needed additions to deal with modern realities, they have done it.

You are making this up as you go along. Wake up! You can't just invent "facts", there has to be some basis in reality!

[jules]

Oh come on MAtists have been fighting for fame/glory/money/honor for centuries.

[Dim Wit Moc]

You know Thai, you don't know what I have seen and what I haven't seen. You also don't know how much I have delved into things. There has been much give and take in the dialogue, and I have listened to many interesting things, but, as far as I am concerned, your only "contributions" have been asinine little barbs. What began as an "us and them" thing has become an interesting dialogue.

I can assure you that I learned over 50 different forms and several kuens on the way to my five animal ranking. This is in addition to my kenpo studies. Some that I listed, because of your prodding, are my own. I have developed my own kung fu system and threw in a few things from mine. Some are from other systems. Some names reflect an angry part of my personality. Since I don't seem to have anything of value to say to you, you should just pass over my "made up" comments and get to the real meat of things.

[Thai Bri]

You are well named.

Made up your own systems indeed.....learned over 50 forms......

What a load of cacka. How many fights have you had, you silly little twerp?

[Dim Wit Moc]

If you have paid close attention you will have read that I know what blood looks like. I could also call you a twerp or butt wipe, but I choose not to because that would be stooping to your level.

As darrianation pointed out, many arts teach ways to avoid conflict. It is a good thing to learn because it saves on hospital bills and police reports. I have no right to say you have Thugee qualities, but you seem to.
convince me you have learned something about conflict resolution in your studies.