The reality of Kungfu

[IPON]

Use your head, Have you ever seen the wing chun forms,

Darr - Can't agree with you here there are only 3 empty hand forms and pretty or flowery would not describe them

[darrianation]

Yeah, but if you do that stuff it'll make you so acrobatic and fast, some shaolin people I've seen are more acrobatic than people in gymnastics.

But dude, Wing chun is not flashy by far.

Yah, and I know guys with a two inch vertical leaps and lucky if they can reach their toes, but can still fight real effectively.

The wing chun thing hmmmm...to me they are fancy, and trapping..... To me it's like watching dance fever or staying alive, great Travolta imatations, or maby I just see, fake commercialized WC. But anyway you get the idea

[darrianation]

Performing the basics well is what makes you advanced!

[AlexJitsu]

Wow, you suck. If it weren't for that shitty quote, you would have been fine. Think I wouldn't notice? You're on my shit list, pal.

[yentao]

Sorry, you are still nowhere near a comprehensible sentence.


What is your first language?

Ok grandmother, is that ok? I used American English. Don't tell me you are a language teacher.

[yentao]

Performing the basics well is what makes you advanced!

What kind of a martial artist who doeasn't get well the basics first before advancing? That's common sense is that what are you trying to say about kung fu?

[yentao]

Use your head, Have you ever seen the wing chun forms, praying mantis forms, or a shaolin deminstration, pretty flashy artsy fartsy fluff. Same when they are doing their partner drills, fluff, and more fancy fluff.

If you have a point then make it.

Is fighting like a demonstration is shaolin only for demonstration. There is something in my head everytime i read your post. Wing Chun yes i've seen them but I can't find anything about wing chun fighting forms that is not effective (elbows and straight vertical punches). Maybe in the kata forms there is but it was only for body strengthening exercise like of tai chi forms. My opinion in Praying mantis, the two fingers use for striking usually aimed in pressure points and the back fist for impact hits. Knees, legs, and elbows are also use. Praying mantis application take years to use that is why it was complicated to learn and not fast to learn better to have knowledge in other kung fu systems before training with it. Those unnecessary looking postures that you view in praying mantis doesn't mean it wasn't effective, you are wrong. Mantis choose a physical features of a person usually suits for people with lightweight. Also you might expect some praying mantis form especially the ones use to training like stretching forms. You can't keep on saying that this forms is for show and I have a point but you can't get it. Hope you will. Someone get to show you how.

[jubaji]

Ok grandmother, is that ok? I used American English.

You didn't use it very well.

[darrianation]

Is fighting like a demonstration is shaolin only for demonstration. There is something in my head everytime i read your post. Wing Chun yes i've seen them but I can't find anything about wing chun fighting forms that is not effective (elbows and straight vertical punches). Maybe in the kata forms there is but it was only for body strengthening exercise like of tai chi forms. My opinion in Praying mantis, the two fingers use for striking usually aimed in pressure points and the back fist for impact hits. Knees, legs, and elbows are also use. Praying mantis application take years to use that is why it was complicated to learn and not fast to learn better to have knowledge in other kung fu systems before training with it. Those unnecessary looking postures that you view in praying mantis doesn't mean it wasn't effective, you are wrong. Mantis choose a physical features of a person usually suits for people with lightweight. Also you might expect some praying mantis form especially the ones use to training like stretching forms. You can't keep on saying that this forms is for show and I have a point but you can't get it. Hope you will. Someone get to show you how.

I have very often said that a demonstration doesn’t mean shit! It only shows what the demonstrator can do under controlled conditions. But this leads to the point I’ve been making, they don’t fight using that stuff, how do they fight? See above posts, but they fight generally with basics. So, why train in all that other stuff? It is showy, unneeded fluff.

Okay you guys may have some good points on the WC, my opinion of WC is not very good, but lets not get caught up in the tangents.

Effectiveness, does come in many forms, basically it is having the desired effect. Functionality is another form, basically it is having the desired effect on consistent basis, but I take it a step further and say it is having the desired effect for the a person with average physical attributes under varying, and unpredictable circumstances, and against people of varying skill level, physical, and psychological attributes. This is true effectiveness.

Then there is efficiency, an example would be MA x’ can take new (no prior experience) students and train them mentally, physically, striking, grappling, weapons in a year and they know the whole system and can use it effectively under varying circumstances. Then theirs MA Y’ That has a larger curriculum and because the way they train (methods/modalities) it takes their students 10 years to learn all the techniques, and to be effective with all but the basics. X’ teaches practical weapons (knife, stick, and what and how to use improvised weapons, while Y’ teaches large impractical weapons that you would not generally carry on your person.

I would choose X’ as the MA to study. Now that doesn’t mean that you couldn’t use Y’ for self-defense but the big difference is that in Y’ it took ten times longer to learn and only about 15% of its totally techniques are functionally effective for their average student. While in X’ 98-100% of their techniques are fuctionally effective for their average student, and it took much less time.

And the truth be known those 98-100% effective techniques learned in X' are either identical or very simular to the 15% effective techniques of Y'.

[darrianation]

What kind of a martial artist who doeasn't get well the basics first before advancing? That's common sense is that what are you trying to say about kung fu?

I am saying beyond the basics it's all fluff, and show, smoke and mirrors.

[darrianation]

Alex prehaps you should go have a chat with sherwinc. You're both KF nuts, you both currently seam to be into judo in one form or another, and you both complaign that I bash KF too much.

H2H we must work together to vanquish this eveil that is among us, and make visable the lies of our foe.

[Nothingness]

We need to train ourselves into the reflex level. Let's that you see an opportunity from your opponent. Let's say that you see that his left rib is open. You see that opportunity, you hit him. However, you don't think with what you are hitting him. It's all reflexes. When the enemy block or react, you should also be able to do a follow up, again, at the reflex level. Isn't this the essence of martial arts?

Keep in note that in a fighting situation, the power of our hits will be discounted somehow. That's why learn to hit really hard when in practice.

[yentao]

I am saying beyond the basics it's all fluff, and show, smoke and mirrors.

Show is for show but if you are talking about advance forms being ineffective is b. shitting. Demonstrations is really just for demo. Is TMA all demonstrations? No it is not. What are you trying to say about tma? It became traditional because it was use for a long time pass by generations. Gracie Jujitsu used for a longtime will eventually be traditional. Same with boxing and savate. Talking about TMAs you are also referring to other systems, be specific can you?

You should not generalized them all. Maybe stylish demonstration crap like you see in wushu shows, but not tma for show. It doesn't mean you can't use it, others can't. Fighters differ in fighting styles and capabilities. It also doesn't mean you can't seem to know a way to make it effective it can't be use at all. You need feedbacks you need someone adept in this system and then discuss with him or her which you seem ineffective.

[yentao]

I have very often said that a demonstration doesn’t mean shit! It only shows what the demonstrator can do under controlled conditions. But this leads to the point I’ve been making, they don’t fight using that stuff, how do they fight? See above posts, but they fight generally with basics. So, why train in all that other stuff? It is showy, unneeded fluff.

Okay you guys may have some good points on the WC, my opinion of WC is not very good, but lets not get caught up in the tangents.

Effectiveness, does come in many forms, basically it is having the desired effect. Functionality is another form, basically it is having the desired effect on consistent basis, but I take it a step further and say it is having the desired effect for the a person with average physical attributes under varying, and unpredictable circumstances, and against people of varying skill level, physical, and psychological attributes. This is true effectiveness.

Then there is efficiency, an example would be MA x’ can take new (no prior experience) students and train them mentally, physically, striking, grappling, weapons in a year and they know the whole system and can use it effectively under varying circumstances. Then theirs MA Y’ That has a larger curriculum and because the way they train (methods/modalities) it takes their students 10 years to learn all the techniques, and to be effective with all but the basics. X’ teaches practical weapons (knife, stick, and what and how to use improvised weapons, while Y’ teaches large impractical weapons that you would not generally carry on your person.

I would choose X’ as the MA to study. Now that doesn’t mean that you couldn’t use Y’ for self-defense but the big difference is that in Y’ it took ten times longer to learn and only about 15% of its totally techniques are functionally effective for their average student. While in X’ 98-100% of their techniques are fuctionally effective for their average student, and it took much less time.

And the truth be known those 98-100% effective techniques learned in X' are either identical or very simular to the 15% effective techniques of Y'.

It also depends how both teachers teach but i see your point. Again, could you pls. give a impractical weapon form or technique that you'll find totally useless. If you are referring into chinese weapon techniques as worthless and ineffective then let me give you some ideas how it will become useful. And how it will help you progress through it. Sword techniques can be use not only in chinese swords but others blade weapons too like steel pipe, arnis stick, hammer, katana and baseball bat which can be used as substitute in the sword i prefer a rusty pipe or crowbar. As you know sword handling in the streets is illegal in someplaces so you may want to use a substitute. This forms also help in reflex and body flexibility especially arm. flexibilty helps strengthen the body against impacts like a throw from a judo guy or arm locks, etc. Learning this forms usually helps you in other non chinese weapon styles like arnis and kendo. Ok that's for now.

[darrianation]

It also depends how both teachers teach but i see your point. Again, could you pls. give a impractical weapon form or technique that you'll find totally useless. If you are referring into chinese weapon techniques as worthless and ineffective then let me give you some ideas how it will become useful. And how it will help you progress through it. Sword techniques can be use not only in chinese swords but others blade weapons too like steel pipe, arnis stick, hammer, katana and baseball bat which can be used as substitute in the sword i prefer a rusty pipe or crowbar. As you know sword handling in the streets is illegal in someplaces so you may want to use a substitute. This forms also help in reflex and body flexibility especially arm. flexibilty helps strengthen the body against impacts like a throw from a judo guy or arm locks, etc. Learning this forms usually helps you in other non chinese weapon styles like arnis and kendo. Ok that's for now.

Remember, there is a very important term in sports science its called specificity. This means that the skill you are learning must be explicit to its application or function. Simply put if you use a sword to defend yourself then train with a sword, if you use a knife, then train with a knife.

Specificity works the same with empty hand techniques it develops faster and more correct neuromuscular responses and easier retention.

Swords, spears, and 3 sectional staffs (or whatever) are fun, cultural, and stylized, but if you carry a firearm then train with a firearm, if you carry a knife for protection then train with a knife. Do not train with techniques or weapons you do not intend to use.