The reality of Kungfu

[AlexJitsu]

Nothingness, hey bro' I agree with you.

It's just that people get so caught up in the small details they forget what the techniques is for. I mean teaching a new student to throw a jab, slow and in the air at first so the teacher can pick out the mistakes and correct it is one thing, but 10 years later the student shouldn't be throwing that same jab slow and in the air. I see this in so many classical martial arts. After 10 years of karate training I was still doing the same routines the same way I was doing them in the first 6 months. To me after you learned the technique, its time to move on. The application becomes more important, because it's effect is more important than it's aesthetics.

Actually, that's just Karate.

Here is how it works

TKD = watered down karate. Karate = watered down Shaolin. Almost all the usefulness of the shaolin system was eliminated. That is why you see those hip cocked punches (which exist in shaolin style). However, in Shaolin style, they actually used them effectively, and not just the "front punch" bogus you see in karate. Also, in Shaolin, the forms are done in full speed, not step by step. There are literally 20 different closed fist strikes in shaolin, and karate only has about 3 of them. The hip cocked punching system is useless without all the proper strikes.

[darrianation]

Actually, that's just Karate.

Here is how it works

TKD = watered down karate. Karate = watered down Shaolin. Almost all the usefulness of the shaolin system was eliminated. That is why you see those hip cocked punches (which exist in shaolin style). However, in Shaolin style, they actually used them effectively, and not just the "front punch" bogus you see in karate. Also, in Shaolin, the forms are done in full speed, not step by step. There are literally 20 different closed fist strikes in shaolin, and karate only has about 3 of them. The hip cocked punching system is useless without all the proper strikes.

Hey, Alex what do you know about Chinese Kenpo?

I studied it for 2 ½ years. It has all the strikes of the shaolin system (supposedly). The school I went to they called it Kung Fu and our instructor was called sifu. Even though they claimed it is the same as shaolin, I wasn’t naive enough to buy it.

But it was a very frustrating system to me. Its forms were as worthless as the karate forms, but also more complicated. There were some good techniques, but the way they were trained was very inefficient, and the overall number of techniques, the preciseness, and the intricacy was overwhelming to me. At the time I had a black belt in karate, and had trained in Arnis (and was still training in Arnis at the time), I had trained in Muay Thai which all came easy to me and I understood it, but Chinese kenpo, geesh some 400 techniques right and left handed, and A,B,C,D (etc.) versions. After 2 1/2 years I still sucked at it.

If Shaolin Kung Fu is anywhere near as complicated and top heavy with techniques as the Chinese kenpo (five animal system) I want nothing to do with it. The problem was even the assistant instructor who taught me my private lesson had to read from the manual when teaching, And he had been doing Kenpo for 11 years.

We did one private lesson per week and all the group classes you wanted Monday- Friday and sparring on Saturday. I went to my private lesson and one group per week and 2 times per week to Arnis.

Anyway I found it to be very inefficient, and it took years for guys to become any good. I don’t think any system should be like that nor does it need to be. We did a lot of technique work little to no application work, except on compliant partners.

It seems they reveled in its complexity, and bragged about the shear numbers of techniques. This, they said was the ultimate self-defense system? I got more practical use out of a 3 day combative seminar then in those 2 1/2 years of Kenpo. Anyway I don't like the kenpo system for these reasons, but I did walk away with a few good techniques like the tigar claw.

[AlexJitsu]

I study the Shaolin system in my free time, and it's not really that complicated in my opinion. Unless of course they shove techniques down your throat your first day.

[darrianation]

When it comes to reality in self-defense I am of the opinion, Keep it simple, keep aggressive, and keep it real. The more intricate movements, the more techniques, the more that can go wrong.

If you are going to assume anything, assume this:

1) Your attacker is armed

2) Your attacker has friends that may jump in at anytime, even if you do not see them

3) Assume that your plans will go right out the window as soon as the attack has begun

So keep it simple and direct. Forget those 85% of the useless or near useless techniques and concentrate on those 15% of techniques that have proven time and time again.

I once thought differently, but after years of real world experience I have come to believe that all though yes, those things from the more complicated systems can work, they often don't. Not because of the flaws in the techniques, but because the flaws of those using them. We are human and fallible, when stress, adrenaline, and fear hit us we shut down and all we are left with is often awkward and clumsy techniques that are gross motored skilled. These are the techniques we need to concentrate on.

[darrianation]

Hey guys, don't be so quick do discount simplicity and that 10 techniques just might be better than 400.

[jubaji]

Here is how it works

TKD = watered down karate. Karate = watered down Shaolin. Almost all the usefulness of the shaolin system was eliminated.

Kung Fu snobbery?

[yentao]

No, that's what we call semiliterate.



You little dope.

Anger management teacher jumanji
Anyway have your eyes check and your brain, it ruins your grandma image. You really came here to spread your nonesense huh?

[yentao]

In a time way back when Kata may have been a good method of exercise. In Karate the kata is used for: Developing power, breath control and precise movement. But this is a relatively new form of modality in karate. In karate the kata does not necessarily have application (that can be argued) but it’s application is learned in Bunkai and performed in kuminte. Or in other words, Kata leads to bunkai, bunkai leads to kuminte, and kuminte leads to the application of the kata.


It’s a logical and reasonable progression, but do we really need them any more? Many well respected combat sports such as boxing and Muay Thai do not use them, and they are both very effective. There are other self-defense systems that do not use them and they are just as effective, if not more so than those systems that use them.

To develop physical attributes of the student there are far more effective and efficient methods. There are calisthenics, pylometerics, weights, heavy bag, other bags/pad work, road work, sparring, live drills, shadow boxing (I have my students do shadow boxing either wearing 16 oz boxing gloves or 16oz weighted gloves, I use 3lb weighted gloves), and Thai pads with a live feeder can work almost every aspect of a fighter’s speed, power, accuracy, and endurance. The reality is we really don’t need kata. Kata/forms are really a stylized, traditional form of training and far less efficient than some of the other methods of training.

Kata at least in Karate also uses unrealistic movements that can actually degrade response time and builds improper neuromuscle memory. For example, cocking the hands back to the ribs/hip, holding arms out at the end of the punch, and one, that I am flabbergasted by, turning 270’ to meet an oncoming attack (it would be much easier and faster to turn the 90’ to meet the attack).

Note: Neuromuscle memory is very important because this is what you’ll rely on in most cases of sudden and violent attack, when the conscious brain disappears, and the subconscious (autonomic) brain takes over. I have spent to many years in karate, for example my wife startled me from behind a door (recently) and my autonomic reaction was to place one arm in my guard, and the other I cocked just above the waist just like in karate. I have been trying for years to deprogram that response, but it’s to deeply ingrained (I am embarrassed to admit that).

Muaythai and boxing trains with weightlifting. I also hear muaythai use an oil in thier body making blows hit to them without much pain. Weightlifting was use to strengthen muscle. Kata is suppose to be the counter part of weightlifting in Karate the cheaper and resourceful way it is not necessary to other art but in karate it has been part of it. Karate being useless? Still depends on how one was train. Even a muaythai fighter can lose without proper training. I don't know how exactly japanese train it but in kung fu it supposed to be that way. The more you train your technique the more it is to be part of the neuromuscle memory. This goes in all territory. Damn commercialized schools.

[Nothingness]

Let me state something, it might sound controversial. However, I think it worths mentioning.

Yes, a proper attack should be done hard and fast. Every MA has its own version on how properly developing the hard blows. Let's leave the issue here for now.

Let's talk about techniques, punches in particular. Some schoos have only a few variation of punches while some have maybe hundreds of them.

I think both are NOT the correct way. The students need to learn a basic hard fast punch properly. Yet, the students need also to learn a basic human anatomy. The punches should adapt like water. For an example, a regular punch (regadless of vertical or horizonta) is maybe the most appropriate for solar plexus. However, if you are targeting the ribs area (those soft ribs), the punch needs to be executed as a hook or a palm attack to be more accurate. Keep in mind that the training needs to reach the reflex level. For an example, if one sees the opponent's solar plexus open, he will use the punch. If he sees the ribs open, he will use the palms. All without thinking.

If the teacher only teaches the "formalized" hundred punches, the meaning of forms follows functions no longer exists.

[jubaji]

Anyway have your eyes check and your brain, it ruins your grandma image.

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What is your first language?

[Nothingness]

The alphabet is unlimited once you have mastered the core of the arts. Quoting Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido: "Whenever I move, it is Aikido." The technique (the alphabet) is created as necessary.

[yentao]

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What is your first language?

Jumanji English ma'am

[jubaji]

English

Impossible.

[yentao]

You are not a good teacher. You don't know how to teach, your system sucks. You should retire grandma you are already entering second childhood.

[jubaji]

You are not a good teacher. -

That's what the stupid students always say.