TMAs VS. Reality based self-defense

[Toudiyama[NL]]

try do that double leg takedown to a boxing, muaythai, kickboxing, sub wrestling, etc... and will will still achieve the same results......

true

and these karate and tae kwon do, even thou they have forearm blocking, still, they use their face and chest to block the opponents hand attacks......

and that is the reason why i quit karate and switch to kungfu......

I do not know which karate you have watched but if I would block with my chest or face, I lose a point
A puch to the head is blocked with a sliding block combined with a reverse punch counter 95% of the times
A puch to the chest also sliding but with a backfist counter
other way is sidestepping, rotating and counterattacking

Man where do you get your info on other Martial Arts from? www.onlyfunguisreal.com or something?

[sherwinc]

true




I do not know which karate you have watched but if I would block with my chest or face, I lose a point
A puch to the head is blocked with a sliding block combined with a reverse punch counter 95% of the times
A puch to the chest also sliding but with a backfist counter
other way is sidestepping, rotating and counterattacking

Man where do you get your info on other Martial Arts from? www.onlyfunguisreal.com or something?

in TMA category, Karate and TaeKwonDo are the 2 very very common, and most people here in our place are familiar with these arts......

but when i notice that all of the Karate and TaeKwonDo tournaments here in our place, they did not really block their opponents hand attacks, as you might see..... he who is the most tough chest and face against opponents punch a common scenery here..... they never mind if they've been hit on thier chest..... instead, they also retaliate a punch to their partner.... and vice versa....... no sence of forearm blocking even thou in their training is full of forearm blocking......


they could not easily apply most of their techniques in a tournament but during their training is full of karate and taekwondo alphabets.....

and i frequently notice that they cant also apply in the tournament the techniques that they know in their Kata's and Pomsee's.... the reason why i also said before that Karate and TaeKwonDo's Kata's and Pomsee's are useless..... if they cant apply that thing in a tournament, then, they cant apply that too in an actual street fight......

[chris davis 200]

You guys keep saying that I am comparing karate to Kung Fu but that isn’t true. I am saying that even though the drills and format are different they still both have some bad habit building exercises and drills. These drills I have already mentioned. Karate and KF as well as many others MAs perform techniques in the air, and a lot of them. They both do a lot of self-defense techniques with the defender knowing what the attacker will do.

Ok ... please let me Ask something here - by saying Kung fu what are you talking about?? External animal styles of shaolin? Family styles like Hung Gar? more obscure styles like Drunken Immortal Boxing? Chinese Wrestling? San shou? Gymnastic Modern Wu Shu? Military prininciple based Arts Like Hsing I (similar to traditional Western Boxing!) or Lohan Chuan? Internal / external systems such as White Crane? mulitple opponent arts like Ba gua?

to date no one has explained to me why the Chinese forms are applicable

I do forms in the internal systems i practice - they are not there to develop street fighting moves - but to develop the tendon and sinew structure of the body - this gives you more power than just building muscle in the gym, as tendons hold far greater potential energy. Sports scientists are coming to the realisation that tendon development can be extremely important in efficiency and power in athletes. they are trying to develop methods of working on tendons - these methods have been around for years - in the internal martial arts.

Having strong tendons mean i have strong striking abilities and excellent explosive power.

In two person practice there is push hands and two person sets - again - just for training - to get used to a persons movement - not as a bunch of techniques - once you understand how a person moves you are able to deal with any persons movements.

In 'sparring' (but i wouldnt can it that) my teacher will say - attack as you want - we do and get our asses kicked every time. I have studied Martial arts for about 17 years - have high grades in Judo, Ju Jutsu etc and have trained Muay thai and many other systems. I have no solution to his responces. And yet with nearly all other martial artists / street guys / modern arts practitioners i have met i can deal with them with some level of skill.

He has trained NOTHING but traditional systems - and assures me there is a big difference in skill between the modern 'thug' and the traditional trained MAist. I believe him after working with many such modern guys and seeing / beating many modern stylists - but getting defeated by him on every occation.

Here is a little story which i had the pleasure of witnising.

My teacher was doing a class in a park one day. A group of guys came over and said that they would like to 'try him out' to see if he had any real skill after seeing a bunch of applications. My teacher said sure, They tried to establish some rules but my teacher said there were none in a challange.

The guy shot for a double leg, my teacher slapped him hard on the the side of the head knocking him out. My teacher then revived him and got him some water from a nearby cafe.

The guy was a Ju JutsuKa.

Also, tag styled one-dimensional sparring is rampant in both. I am sure there are some styles or schools that go beyond this from time to time.

I have never done this type of thing in ANY traditional systems - only modern ones. Karate and Taekwondo are the only arts i know with any history that practice this sort of work. AND it is a fairly modern edition to those systems - not a traditional method.

I had a very good friend who is an 4th dan aikido instructor who I nagged and nagged to spar. He would always decline saying he would hurt me (break my arm). Finally he got tiered of my insistence and agreed to let me punch at him and he would show me his defense. So, instead of throwing the punch like he expected, I shot in for a double leg takedown, and pummeled him into submission (just lightly though). He could not defend against what he didn’t expect.

Pllleeeassee - you say to someone i will throw a punch and you defend then do a different technique.

This is not a realistic street situation so how the hell can you judge???

As stated before in the street you prepare for any eventuality with no pre concieved ideal of what with happen next!!

aikido is also a modern art (post Meiji Martial art - like Judo), but doesnt do punching in the air, Kata or forms? how does this relate, where does it fit into your defenition of Modern or traditional???

I also discovered something interesting years ago. When I was working on weapons defenses against knives. If I knew the grip and the strike my partner was going to use regardless of speed and commitment I was able to defend 99.9% of the time with no problem. But if he uses an unknown attack with an unknown grip at full speed with feints, or punches from his non-weapons hand, or kicks as a lead or as follow ups my percentages for successful defenses went way down, somewhere in the 50% range. I am much better now, because I now do more live and unpredictable training.

I wonder how live your training really is - if you were attacking me full pelt even in training i would respond with equal force - both of us would probably get hurt in some way. I am guessing you are expecting your students to pull punches, knee's, kicks, headbuts, elbows etc due to the need for saftey. May i ask what the difference is between this type of false practice where after a headbut you continue attacking instead of thinking about your caved in face, and the point sparring tappy tappy stuff you so dispise.

I see lots of combative stuff and modern street stuff which doesnt actually train with much contact or real consideration of what their strikes will do - attacks just ignoring the kidney punch and the head but or the knee and continuing to attack like nothing has happened - and yet some still consider it the yardstick by which all systems should be measured.

cheers
chris

[Toudiyama[NL]]

..... if they cant apply that thing in a tournament, then, they cant apply that too in an actual street fight......

What you discribe is TKD not Karate, what are called freestyle Karate tournaments are actually TKD tournaments

Waht you discribe is Fake commercialised Karate lookalikes


You yourself do not enter any tournaments because they are restrictive, why do you think it isn't the same for them

Only if punches to the body do not score, then people will allow the other to punch there since tournaments are sports and if you want to win you have to use the rules
So if you can't score on the body then you can use it to get closer to a target that does score

Tournamentrules differ a lot esspecialy outside the big assocs
The WKF is the largest Karate organisation in the world, what they do is point karate, this style of competing doesn't allow for thing you discribe
3 full points or 6 halfs or a combination of both will give you a win, sloppy techniques do not score
contact is skintouch to the face, slightly harder to the body
The match is pause after a score
No safe-T kicks or punches are worn only handprotectors without thumb
These rules do not allow for body and faceblocks because the match would be over within 20 seconds

BTW the only way you are gonna take my reverse punch shot to the body is on the ground gasping for air ( noone up to now managed to take the blow)

I've seen this freestyle karatetournaments, they think that they score anytime the glove touches, perfection of technique isn't important

[sherwinc]

What you discribe is TKD not Karate, what are called freestyle Karate tournaments are actually TKD tournaments

Waht you discribe is Fake commercialised Karate lookalikes

the Karate that i mean i frequently watch on their tournament are the ff:
1. Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate
2. Phil-Tai Karate Association
3. VilCat Karate Club
4. PhilSiSuDo Karate Club
5. Karatedo
6. NaJuKaJu-A (National Judo Karate JuiJitSu Association)
7. Tang Soo Do Karate Club
8. Can't remember any more, so very many........
(all karate that i mention is all found within the City)

i am mostly present cause i enjoy watching them tournament as a leisure time.....

most of my friends are also black belt of different karate schools.....

You yourself do not enter any tournaments because they are restrictive, why do you think it isn't the same for them

because most of KungFu hand attacks are only not legal in the tournament, also foul and disqualified if used in a tournament, so...... kungfu will usually loose the fight in a tournament versus karate or tae kwon do......

[Toudiyama[NL]]

the Karate that i mean i frequently watch on their tournament are the ff:
1. Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate
2. Phil-Tai Karate Association
3. VilCat Karate Club
4. PhilSiSuDo Karate Club
5. Karatedo
6. NaJuKaJu-A (National Judo Karate JuiJitSu Association)
7. Tang Soo Do Karate Club
8. Can't remember any more, so very many........
(all karate that i mention is all found within the City)

appart from number 1 the rest looks like BS
7 Tang soo Do is Korean and therefore no Karate to begin with0

because most of KungFu hand attacks are only not legal in the tournament, also foul and disqualified if used in a tournament, so...... kungfu will usually loose the fight in a tournament versus karate or tae kwon do......

And my question was, why do you think it is different for them?
Tournaments are the gamepart of the MA only a small part of the curriculum is done depending on the rules
If you say they block with their chest than it is obvious that one can't score there, and seeing that it is only a gamee of scoring points, who cares if someone hits you in the chest ( can't imagine someone taking a punch to the face)
Sports need rules, SD doesn't, if you enter sports, you better use the rules to your advantage instead of seeing them as a restriction

[krys]

Karate form = anything you could do on a heavy bag. Also, stop and go, so it's basically useless.

And to date no one has explained to me why the Chinese forms are applicable and the karate katas are not to any degree of satisfaction.

Sanchin, Tensho are fundamental Kata of most Ryuku karate styles. Practicing them allows to find correct posture and breathe correctly. These katas allow you to develop power in your strikes and give you control over tension. They also allow to build a powerful physique and a strong fighting spirit. I don't see why those benefits cannot give entire satisfation to any martist.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Sanchin, Tensho are fundamental Kata of most Ryuku karate styles. Practicing them allows to find correct posture and breathe correctly. These katas allow you to develop power in your strikes and give you control over tension. They also allow to build a powerful physique and a strong fighting spirit. I don't see why those benefits cannot give entire satisfation to any martist.

Sanchin en Tensho are Kata from the Naha branch so Goju and Uechi as well as the combi art of Shito
the Shuri branch doesn't have those, there Kushanku and or Naihanchi are the most important Kata

[darrianation]

That aikido story was pretty inaccurate. If you're someones friend and you're training with them, and he says "do this", and you do something else, no shit he won't expect a double leg. That's called "cheating"...and don't say, "oh but on the street...", because on the street you expect anything. He was expecting a punch, and nothing else. Also, don't you think it's kinda hoaky that an aikido person got taken down and owned?

My brother does that to me all the time and it pisses me off. For the beginners, it is essential that they can do the technique without any resistance at FIRST, and then with resistance once they can do the movements perfectly 10 times out of 10.

Also, the difference between Karate and Kung Fu forms?

Karate form = anything you could do on a heavy bag. Also, stop and go, so it's basically useless.

Kung Fu form = contains techniques and principles, much more complex, flowing, not stop and go, develops agility and accuracy. Kung Fu forms have low stances to develop strength in the legs while doing the form, but you don't actually use the low stances in combat.

Also, formwork in internal martial arts is essential in order to have any power within your striking.

Alex, let me just say this the first rule of self-defense is there are no rules. Therefore one cannot cheat. Dirty tricks are the name of the game and if you cannot handle it then you need to get out.

Also in shotokan the stances are very low to develop leg strength, but you aren’t suppose too fight that way either, but then again you see those guys dropping low in sparring and not being able to maneuver well as a side effect of the incorrect neuro-muscle building training. And the Katas are about building power as well, as well as turning directions correctly, to bad they have to much BS that they become counter productive.

And as I said previously, yes beginners need to learn the techniques slow, and with cooperation at first. But the 4th dan Aikido friend of mine is no beginner and neither am I. That’s how I train my students to always expect the unexpected. They really never know just what I am going to do or how their partner will attack.

[darrianation]

Ok ... please let me Ask something here - by saying Kung fu what are you talking about?? External animal styles of shaolin? Family styles like Hung Gar? more obscure styles like Drunken Immortal Boxing? Chinese Wrestling? San shou? Gymnastic Modern Wu Shu? Military prininciple based Arts Like Hsing I (similar to traditional Western Boxing!) or Lohan Chuan? Internal / external systems such as White Crane? mulitple opponent arts like Ba gua?



I do forms in the internal systems i practice - they are not there to develop street fighting moves - but to develop the tendon and sinew structure of the body - this gives you more power than just building muscle in the gym, as tendons hold far greater potential energy. Sports scientists are coming to the realisation that tendon development can be extremely important in efficiency and power in athletes. they are trying to develop methods of working on tendons - these methods have been around for years - in the internal martial arts.

Having strong tendons mean i have strong striking abilities and excellent explosive power.

In two person practice there is push hands and two person sets - again - just for training - to get used to a persons movement - not as a bunch of techniques - once you understand how a person moves you are able to deal with any persons movements.

In 'sparring' (but i wouldnt can it that) my teacher will say - attack as you want - we do and get our asses kicked every time. I have studied Martial arts for about 17 years - have high grades in Judo, Ju Jutsu etc and have trained Muay thai and many other systems. I have no solution to his responces. And yet with nearly all other martial artists / street guys / modern arts practitioners i have met i can deal with them with some level of skill.

He has trained NOTHING but traditional systems - and assures me there is a big difference in skill between the modern 'thug' and the traditional trained MAist. I believe him after working with many such modern guys and seeing / beating many modern stylists - but getting defeated by him on every occation.

Here is a little story which i had the pleasure of witnising.

My teacher was doing a class in a park one day. A group of guys came over and said that they would like to 'try him out' to see if he had any real skill after seeing a bunch of applications. My teacher said sure, They tried to establish some rules but my teacher said there were none in a challange.

The guy shot for a double leg, my teacher slapped him hard on the the side of the head knocking him out. My teacher then revived him and got him some water from a nearby cafe.

The guy was a Ju JutsuKa.



I have never done this type of thing in ANY traditional systems - only modern ones. Karate and Taekwondo are the only arts i know with any history that practice this sort of work. AND it is a fairly modern edition to those systems - not a traditional method.



Pllleeeassee - you say to someone i will throw a punch and you defend then do a different technique.

This is not a realistic street situation so how the hell can you judge???

As stated before in the street you prepare for any eventuality with no pre concieved ideal of what with happen next!!

aikido is also a modern art (post Meiji Martial art - like Judo), but doesnt do punching in the air, Kata or forms? how does this relate, where does it fit into your defenition of Modern or traditional???



I wonder how live your training really is - if you were attacking me full pelt even in training i would respond with equal force - both of us would probably get hurt in some way. I am guessing you are expecting your students to pull punches, knee's, kicks, headbuts, elbows etc due to the need for saftey. May i ask what the difference is between this type of false practice where after a headbut you continue attacking instead of thinking about your caved in face, and the point sparring tappy tappy stuff you so dispise.

I see lots of combative stuff and modern street stuff which doesnt actually train with much contact or real consideration of what their strikes will do - attacks just ignoring the kidney punch and the head but or the knee and continuing to attack like nothing has happened - and yet some still consider it the yardstick by which all systems should be measured.

cheers
chris

I am talking about any martial art that claims to be for self-defense, that uses

1) Forms/kata- or any form of incorrect neuro-muscle building exercises or drills.
2) Uses pre-arranged drills (beyond the beginner stage)
3) Uses pre-determined and cooperative attacks (beyond the beginner stage)
4) Does not teach the use of real world appropriate weapons, as well as improvised weapons and make it a priority. Broad swords, spears, 3 sectional staff, sais, and etc are not real world appropriate weapons.
5) Systems that do not incorporate all ranges of fighting A- weapons range, B-striking ranges (kicking, punching), or grappling range (clinching, ground fighting).
6) Those who rely to much on dueling or in other words light contact or limited contact, or one dimensional sparring (sparring that does not incorporate all ranges of fighting).
7) Those arts that do not get into the criminal mindset, psychology, legal issues, use of force, and other special issues.
8) Those who have a large amount of techniques, have large amounts complicated fine motor skilled techniques, or use fancy complicated stances or footwork.
9)) Any MA that doesn’t teach with specificity toward self-defense.
10) Those arts that take years to learn, and ETC.

These are the kinds of MAs I am talking about. I am not talking about martial sports, like BJJ, Judo, MT, or Boxing, just the “so called combat arts that claim they are a self-defense art”.

The above list takes place in many MAs but they are seen predominant in many TMAs, not all, just all of the ones that I am aware of, but some do this to a less degree than others. Remember this is just the short list. Some of these may not apply to you or your school, but if some of them do…well, if the shoe fits….stop rationalizing why you do it, stop trying to ,make it all relevant because it isn’t.

A good program like what I was saying to Alex needs to have dynamics and unpredictability. Drills should be performed with the defender in disadvantaged positions and situations, not drills that give us a false sense of imaginary success. Good drills and scenarios will keep a student on their toes and guessing.

To often the kind of training we see in many TMAs (not necessarily all) trains their students to duelists and there are huge differences between being trained to duel verses training for survival.

Again with the Aikido guy, I wanted to spar, and he didn’t, he came up with the you punch and I’ll show you a defense. I asked him how is this going to show me what you really can do? I wanted to see it’s real effectiveness, not a demonstration. So, I did what any good street fighter would have done, I did the unexpected. If he had been training correctly for all those years he would have either countered me before I took him to the ground or soon after. That’s the problem, you guys can defend what you expect, but have a lot harder time defending against an unexpected, determined attack, Not that it can’t be done, but because your training has been geared for success that isn’t real.

Anyway dueling is dangerous in the streets. And if you do not train the way I am describing then don’t take offense. And don’t try to tell me only modern MAs do this crap, Because I have seen plenty of the so called ancient Chinese systems doing the same dead drills, the same pre-determined cooperative attacks and other bad training methods I have already described. Stop trying to rationalize bad, unrealistic training. You may still get there (effective at self-defense) but it will be the long way around and far to many will be left behind and never make it.

This isn't rocket science guys, I am not speaking in riddles, this is no non-sense, no bull shit stuff, just common sense.

[jcmack]

Dar,

I wanted to see it’s real effectiveness, not a demonstration.

I will go ahead and tell you that if you were my friend and asked me to see the effectiveness of my martial art, I wouldn't show you either. The real effectiveness of my art would leave you severely injured. What I do is not something that would allow me to play around with you.

Furthermore, as a friend and in this situation a training partner, there is a certain degree of trust that should be given. Don't say one thing and do another. If you wanted to randomly attack him then say that. If he says no then fine. Do it his way. In a real fight or not, a fighter keeps good awareness and knows his enemies. If you had been good friends for awhile of course he didn't expect you to double leg him. Keep in mind I am not defending his martial art or his practice since I don't know him and my dealing with aikido practitioners has caused me not to think highly of their skill anyway.

That’s the problem, you guys can defend what you expect, but have a lot harder time defending against an unexpected, determined attack,

Not true, at least for my art which is a TMA. Only true for a beginner.

And don’t try to tell me only modern MAs do this crap, Because I have seen plenty of the so called ancient Chinese systems doing the same dead drills, the same pre-determined cooperative attacks and other bad training methods I have already described.

Agreed. most TMAs I've seen do this. These I typically don't consider to be TMAs since they don't really train traditionally. There are really only a few TMAs left.

Anyway, Dar, I agree with most everything else you've said. I think that unless you have the huge amount of time to dedicate to a real TMA still meant to be used in war, then you should stick with RBSD.

It produces a decent fighter in a faster amount of time. The downside to this is that there is a cap on how good you can get. The moral is, if you can devote lots of time to it, and you can find what I would consider to be a real TMA where the focus is on war and the true mentality of war is used during training, then you should stick with the RBSD.

[sherwinc]

Sports need rules, SD doesn't, if you enter sports, you better use the rules to your advantage instead of seeing them as a restriction

i think its true........

[CKD]

Before we continue we should clarify two arts to talk about. There are many arts termed as Reality Based Martial arts. They range to horrible to great. There are man reality based ma's that suck and there are several that are awesome. Same with TMA's. For example you see many people criticizing Krav Maga but people say great things about ROSS. Also there are arts that are hard to classify. For example Sambo has a sport aspect and a combat form which includes strikes not allowed in sport sambo, weapons, and mindset. Kyoukushin is somewhere between tma and full contact sports. We should choose examples before continuing.

[darrianation]

Dar, I will go ahead and tell you that if you were my friend and asked me to see the effectiveness of my martial art, I wouldn't show you either. The real effectiveness of my art would leave you severely injured. What I do is not something that would allow me to play around with you.

Yah, that’s what he kept saying but he couldn’t produce. What I meant by real effectiveness though (in this case) was could he perform against an unexpected attack. I often test my students by doing the same thing, I tell them I am going to attack one way then I attack another. They have become accustomed to expect the unexpected and they have become quite good at defending unknown, unexpected, and misdirected attacks.

In the street no one will tell you "hay I am going to throw the right"…. But he may lead you to believe he is going to throw the right through gesture, body language, or a feint, but he may actually attack by many other ways.

Anyway, you make some good points too. I also think you can become a good fighter in most MAs, but for many it takes awhile. Many RBSD schools run the gambit from extremely good and effective to take your money and run so, you have to be aware of the fake/commercialized schools also.

I think I am going to travel America going to different MA schools and evaluating their programs to see if I can spot the real from the fake. Maybe I’ll post my evaluations here. Of course my criteria will be based on the principles I have already discussed.

[darrianation]

Before we continue we should clarify two arts to talk about. There are many arts termed as Reality Based Martial arts. They range to horrible to great. There are man reality based ma's that suck and there are several that are awesome. Same with TMA's. For example you see many people criticizing Krav Maga but people say great things about ROSS. Also there are arts that are hard to classify. For example Sambo has a sport aspect and a combat form which includes strikes not allowed in sport sambo, weapons, and mindset. Kyoukushin is somewhere between tma and full contact sports. We should choose examples before continuing.

You are right, but there is a problem here, many of the good RBSD systems are not well known and they don’t have web sites. They are very few large systems that have schools across the country let alone across the world. We can talk about leaders in the movement or their ideas as well as ideologies of the RBSDs but actual systems are much harder. The reason is many are not stylized; they don’t have the same structure that many established TMAs do (although there are many TMAs taught this way). I suppose at some point many RBSDs will go the way of the many TMAs and become large commercial systems, But then again I believe (but I could be wrong) that they are better suited for the masses than most TMAs.

There are many instructors and schools that claim to be RBSD, and you hear terms like combat shotokan, or combat this, or reality based TKD, but make no mistake these are not RBSD systems. They may employ some of the RBSD philosophies but they are still shotokan/TKD/whatever. If you look up my first post in this thread I talk about some of the great leaders in the combative as well as the RBSD movement finding out what they teach you will get a good idea of what a good RBSD program is all about.

For instance I teach private lessons, I go to my student’s homes to teach them. I have all the gear necessary to teach including wrestling mats, safety knives, guns, safety gear for full out striking (sparring), pads, bags, a BOB, and weapons for training. I also hold a group session once a week where any of my students can come and we all train together, and once a month we perform complex scenario training (we do simple scenarios all the time). I am an independent meaning I do not belong to any organizations. Many RBSD operators do it this way, so it is hard to nail down some of the good ones unless there is one in your area that advertises well. Most my students come by way of word of mouth; I do not have a large advertising budget.

I also hold regular training sessions for a personal and cooperate security group out of phoenix, AZ. where I teach emergency medical procedures and close quarters H2H tactics, as well as a part time operator. The great thing about the RBSD is I live in Colorado and many of them live in AZ (and some else where), so I can give them a 30-40 hour session in a week's time and they are good to go for about 2-3 months. You could not do this with many TMAs it would never work. You also have to remember we rely on intelligence and proceedure to keep our clients safe, if shit goes down we rely on our heads and weapons (guns) before we would ever rely on H2H. If we get involved in a H2H struggle we have already f***ed up.