Has anyone fought decent chinese MA practitioners?

[SamuraiGuy]

no your not correct your dumb... dont ask why because i dont care enuff to give reasons.. and the truth is i dont have any... bye dumbass.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Actually ChiDianBun KungFu has a total of over 200+ fighting alphabets......

but my KungFu instructor teach me only 55 of it..........

but this 55 alphabets x 6 unique applications each = 330 overall unique fighting alphabets.....

Note:

if you compare ChiDianBun to AiKiDo

ChiDianBun that i learn i have a total of 330 overall unique fighting alphabets

while.....

AiKiDo has a total of 3000 alphabets.......

comparing 330 versus 3000 ????????????

Result:

The reason why you could not use your AiKiDo versus other martial arts like Boxing cause of AiKiDo's 3000 alphabets versus 6 alphabets of western boxing

then.......

Western Boxing Wins.......

I am correct?????????

I could just as well reply to a telphonepole, it will listen to what I say just as much

I used Aikido as an example of having few techniques but learing to use it all the time, boxing and MT do that too
the reason for Aikido's impracticality lies in thee way they perform the attacks, in most Aikido dojo, this is done way too flowery
I used Aikido because it is clear it is the same 6 or so throws, just performed from a different attack
First you learn the 6 throws, then from there on you only need to learn the setups specific for a certain kind of attack, not llike in so many KF styles the complete movement hence learning is easier

But to oblige you, In a fight between Aikido and boxing or MT, it is not the techniques that are important because both have about the same and both are trained to use those in almost any situation, therefore the intensity and the way of training are the only factors that make the difference
Because boxing and MT train with resistive oponents, they will most likely win ( most likely because anyone can have a lucky hit at some time)
Now if boxing would have 1000 techniques, then they might be in a disadvantaged situation because most of them would only suit a certain situation and be far less honed
If only Aikodoka would train in the same manner as BJJ people do then maybe they would be a kickass art
If only all karateka would train like MT fighters do then it would be too and the same is thrue for KF that doesn't complicaate matters too much in making every movement unique when it isn't
And using names that are descibtive not mysterious and cloaking

[jmd161]

BJJ,

If you know BJJ, Bjj, you can throttle about 99 percent of the kung fu guys if you're including groundfighting. lol, no surprise to you I imagine. Unfortunately, most kung fu guys can be somewhat closeminded into thinking they won't be taken to the ground or they'll eyestrike a grappler.

I have a kung fu background and have sparred a ton of kung fu guys of almost every style. When my Wing Chun couldn't hold up against the really good guys, I used my trump card. Because I also studied JKD, I was able to beat nearly all of them by just kickboxing them. In NYC, they have what's called the Wong Fei Hung tournament. It's held once a year, and all the big names from Chinatown show up. The guys who end up winning in the advanced fighting had backgrounds in JKD, boxing, and muay thai.

No offense bro ,but that whole post sounds like crap to me.

First off knowing BJJ doesn't mean anything ,it's how much you've used those techniques against a resisting opponent that makes a difference.

Secondly, BJJ lacks other aspects that are needed in this day and age to be effective like striking,takedown defense,throws etc....

That is why MMA is so big right now because none of those arts you mention Boxing,Muay Thai,Bjj are enough on their own ,they all lack a needed componet.

Boxing & Muay Thai both lack Grappling or grappling defense.

BJJ lacks good Take down defense and striking.

If the people that won these matches all come from JKD,Boxing,and Muay Thai backgrounds ,Why are they wasting their time training in CMA?

Then also not all the big names show up ,so i'm not sure where you get your info from.

jeff

[jmd161]

Sigh. They're naming tournaments after a Jet Li movie now. What's this world coming to?

Wong Fei Hung is a famous Hung Gar (Southern Shaolin kung fu) style master.

So it's not named after a Jet Li movie

Many ppl have played him in movies such as Sammo Hung,Jackie Chan, Kwan Tak Hing etc....

jeff

[Tom Yum]

No offense bro ,but that whole post sounds like crap to me.

First off knowing BJJ doesn't mean anything ,it's how much you've used those techniques against a resisting opponent that makes a difference.

Secondly, BJJ lacks other aspects that are needed in this day and age to be effective like striking,takedown defense,throws etc....

That is why MMA is so big right now because none of those arts you mention Boxing,Muay Thai,Bjj are enough on their own ,they all lack a needed componet.

Boxing & Muay Thai both lack Grappling or grappling defense.

BJJ lacks good Take down defense and striking.

If the people that won these matches all come from JKD,Boxing,and Muay Thai backgrounds ,Why are they wasting their time training in CMA?

Then also not all the big names show up ,so i'm not sure where you get your info from.

jeff

Hey Jeff, BJJ guys train 99% of the time against resisting opponents. That's why they say that its learned on the mat. You learn right away what you can and can't do, because once your shown a few techniques you get on the mat and grapple against a guy that is doing the same thing from day one.

Traditional muay thai has a very sophisticated grappling component in clinchwork. Lots of twist takedowns, sweeps and trips not to mention knees, elbows and a slew of illegal techniques. True that it doesn't have wrestling style work.

You're wrong about why MMA is popular. Its popular, because MMA guys cut the chase, get themselves in top physical condition, build their mental toughness through regular sparring and get to work on their goal - how to either knockout or submit an opponent. They learn how to throw proper, clean techniques and are not simply swinging their arms like apes. As a CMA guy, you know how the hips and legs play in generating body power. Does Mike Tyson have clean technique? How about Raymon Dekkers? Can those guys hit hard with serious body power...

Traditional martial arts have their qualities. You learn some good self-defense that works - don't flame me MMA people - but if an average sized cop can knockout a big street guy, with a knife hand strike (yes its been documented) then it works. Plus TMAs teach you how to be better people, build self-discipline and focus while exploring culture.

The difference; their is consistancy in MMA training. In CMA or TMA, some people might be serious about their self-defense training while most are usually kids and soccer moms. The end result - the class aims at the average, rather than challenge the group. Can't do to many excercises, or soccermoms get intimidated or quit and the kids don't want to work hard and loose focus.

Again, I'm not putting down females in MA either, because I have seen average gals get into arts like boxing, work hard, loose their flinching instinct and be able to hit back - HARD. In the end, who is going to be better off at self-defense - a lady who know 50 techniques, but has never had to use them under pressure or a lady who can throw 10 different explosive punch combination with 3 basic punches, is in really good shape and is good at making the attacker miss when they attack because she's done it 100 times in the ring against male training partners?

[Tom Yum]

Why hasn't anyone else commented on San Shou? 99% of great CMA fighters come from san shou training. They are getting better and better, accumulating wins against decent thai fighters. Are they able to topple the best in muay thai? Not yet, but it could happen some day.

Most of the KOs they get are from devastating takedowns against the thai boxers? Why? Muay thai fighters fight very upright, even compared to western boxers. If their clinch knees can't take out a sanshou guy really fast, they get scooped and slammed.

The Mongolian Chinese are especially good at doing this.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Wong Fei Hung is a famous Hung Gar (Southern Shaolin kung fu) style master.

So it's not named after a Jet Li movie

Many ppl have played him in movies such as Sammo Hung,Jackie Chan, Kwan Tak Hing etc....

jeff

I just remembered that Wong Fei hung was an actualperson(remembered seeing an article about him few years back).

[Mr. Gordo]

No offense bro ,but that whole post sounds like crap to me.

Now why would I take offense at you calling my post "crap?"

First off knowing BJJ doesn't mean anything ,it's how much you've used those techniques against a resisting opponent that makes a difference

Secondly, BJJ lacks other aspects that are needed in this day and age to be effective like striking,takedown defense,throws etc....

That is why MMA is so big right now because none of those arts you mention Boxing,Muay Thai,Bjj are enough on their own ,they all lack a needed componet.

Boxing & Muay Thai both lack Grappling or grappling defense.

BJJ lacks good Take down defense and striking.

Renzo's school in NYC, crosstrains his fighters in boxing and muay thai. The distinct difference between kung fu and boxing, muay thai, and BJJ is this: Traditional kung fu guys don't spar against other stylists. I've trained Wing Chun, Ba Gua/Hsing-I for about 13 years, and my ability to deal with other styles is due to the fact that I used to go to boxing gyms, muay thai gyms, and BJJ schools to fight with them. Most traditional kung fu guys like to give the typical excuses of "well, it's not REAL fighting" or "yeah, but my eyestrike got ya." Bottom line is this, if you can't hit someone cleanly with a closed fist or stop someone from shooting in on you without mentioning the "deadly eye gouge," then in reality, no sparring of any type should be done. We should all just sit around on our asses claiming our techniques are too deadly.

If the people that won these matches all come from JKD,Boxing,and Muay Thai backgrounds ,Why are they wasting their time training in CMA?

Because most CMA is garbage because they don't know how to train against various stylists. I'd bet my house that any 99% of CMA's in NYC's Chinatown would get their asses handed to them if they went down to Gleason's gym and sparred with any of their guys who have been there for 6 months. All CMA's need to get out of their kung fu world and go train with other stylists to get their game up to speed. When you watch the guys that end up winning, that's not kung fu they're doing....it's kickboxing.

Then also not all the big names show up ,so i'm not sure where you get your info from.

LOL. Why, because you're school doesn't show up? In Chinatown, 99% percent of the schools go down and participate. Wai Hong's people (Fu Jow Pai), Norman Chin's people (southern mantis), Ralph Mitchell's people (JKD), Pedro Cepera's people (hung gar), and so on. Yes, there are schools that don't show up and I'm not dogging them for that. If they want to enter the more full contact tournaments like the Sanda, I respect them even more. It's up to the individual.

[Tom Yum]

99% of CMA's in NYC's Chinatown would get their asses handed to them if they went down to Gleason's gym and sparred with any of their guys who have been there for 6 months. All CMA's need to get out of their kung fu world and go train with other stylists to get their game up to speed. When you watch the guys that end up winning, that's not kung fu they're doing....it's kickboxing.

That's true with alot of other traditional martial arts as well. Then again, alot of people join them to improve their lives in other tangible ways. Yeah, in the past I noticed the guys who win in open martial arts tournaments fight like american kickboxers, whether they are Lima-Lama stylists or Shotokan Karate.

[Studiobuddy]

im in school right now

[jmd161]

I'm not going to get into a debate or argument on this because it's been done to death already on every forum on the net.

Mr. Gordo,

99% of ppl at TMA or TCMA tournaments fight like kickboxers ,so i still fail to see your point.

You have to understand that ppl go to kung fu schools for different reasons than ppl who go to MMA or Bjj schools. Most CMA stylist fighting at tourneys are doing it for fun ,don't get me wrong there are some there for the fighting ,but the majority of ppl at kung fu schools are there for entire different reason than ppl at those other schools.

Also, you're right the average Bjj or MMA student of 6 months would beat many of the students at a kung fu kwoon. But it's not because Bjj or MMA is superior to CMA ,it's because they jump into fighting and applications alot quicker than the CMA stylist.

CMA is usually a very lenghty drawn out process when it comes to teaching it. That is something that i really have a problem with ,but i can't control how it's taught at other schools.

CMA has been around for over 2000 yrs ,you don't last that long unless your're effective. Don't blame the style blame the stylist.


Tom Yum,

I'm a Traditional Chinese Martial Arts stylist without a doubt ,but i know alot more about MMA,Wrestling,and Boxing than the average TCMA person. The reason being i use to wrestle,box,and i train with MMA teachers and students ,so i'm not green like most TCMA stylist.

jeff

[bartjam]

@Sherwinc - a syllabus of 6-8 basic moves is much better than ridiculously rich syllabus (55, 100, 300 etc.). Why? Ask the street-experienced people why.

[sherwinc]

@Sherwinc - a syllabus of 6-8 basic moves is much better than ridiculously rich syllabus (55, 100, 300 etc.). Why? Ask the street-experienced people why.

why is it that only me here in defend.net presenting that less is better than more????????

ok, since i have none yet experience in a real death street fight, explain me further that less technique learned are better than many, i need detailed explaination.......

[darrianation]

why is it that only me here in defend.net presenting that less is better than more????????

ok, since i have none yet experience in a real death street fight, explain me further that less technique learned are better than many, i need detailed explaination.......

The brain can only process so much information at a time as well, it can only send so much information via peripheral neuro-networks, too much information and you can have a traffic jam. Also, when you are hit with fear and adrenalin certain motor functions shutdown, complex or intricate techniques become all but impossible to perform.

I ask my students to think about their most fearful moment, and then I ask them in that situation what kind of tasks they could perform.

Here is a story I like to tell my students.

When I was twelve years old I went flying with my uncle who owned his own airplane. This guy was a known prankster but who knew to what depths he’d sink too for a laugh. Well, I found out one day.

We had been flying for about a half hour when he suddenly and abruptly said “Oh my God, we are almost out of fuel” as he pointed to the fuel gage which read empty. He turned back towards the airfield to make a quick landing. About five minutes later the engine began to sputter. I was now terrified. As the engine began to stall I was gripping the seat as hard as I could. I remembered how hard it was to breath, and seconds seemed top take hours. I remember not being able to focus my eyes very well, nor did I understand what my uncle was saying, I could hear him but I could not concentrate on what he was saying. After the engine stalled he nosed dived the plane I switched my grip from the seat to the dash and pushed myself back into my seat. I thought we were going to die. I was so scared I couldn’t even scream, not one word, just dead silence.

He then switched the empty fuel tank to a full tank and restarted the engine and he laughed his ass off.

Okay now as we look at this example I wonder what kind of tasks I could perform under these conditions of fear and adrenalin? Hmmm…Could I do algebra? No! Could I perform Pinan shodan? No? Could I perform trapping techniques? NO! Could I grab on to someone? Yes! Could I push? Yes! Could I punch? Yes!


This shows that higher process of intellect as well as finer motor activity is severely affected by stress, fear, and adrenalin. This is why we need to learn and commit to neuro-muscle memory techniques that are simple and that can be used without the higher process of the mind that do not rely on intricate movements. Because when you arrive home after a night of drinking or carousing with the Sheilas and find a 6’4’’ power lifter looking guy in your home, in the dark, who startles you from behind a corner, You can act subconsciously (without intricate mental processing) with the appropriate responses that are effective. To many techniques can cause a traffic jam affect, complex techniques can cause a freeze or a poorly executed response that can get you either killed or severely injured.


A hall mark of any good technique is simplicity. It needs to be functional under extreme pressure and it needs to be universal. Universal? Universality is essential, meaning one technique with many applications and with a simple variance it can be adaptable to many more situations.

I have one technique that can be used against any frontal attack that you can imagine anything from a lapel grab, front choke, right cross, any type of grab, flurry punches, and etc and is very effective. I do not have to memorize a technique for each different specific attack. I can defend most with one technique. I have one or two other techniques for other various and as sundry attacks that work well for attacks from behind and the side as well but they are also kept to the lowest constitute minimum. I like techniques that can be used regardless of what the attacker is doing or regardless of what attack he is using.

The best street fighters (some with absolutely no formal MA training) can beat most guys with 1-3 techniques in their arsenal, even against formally trained MAs. Some may have more but still very few such as: Jab, cross, head but, or jab, cross, hook, clinch (grab), head but, knee. Simple stuff but effective. All good street fighters have one thing in common they are mentally tough and they fight nasty, and unfair! To be good at a few techniques can be just as effective as being good with hundreds of techniques and when stress fear, and adrenalin hit even more effective and practical.

To impress your friends more is better than a few, but the reality is for real world self-defense few beats more!

[Studiobuddy]

The brain can only process so much information at a time as well, it can only send so much information via peripheral neuro-networks, too much information and you can have a traffic jam. Also, when you are hit with fear and adrenalin certain motor functions shutdown, complex or intricate techniques become all but impossible to perform.

I ask my students to think about their most fearful moment, and then I ask them in that situation what kind of tasks they could perform.

Here is a story I like to tell my students.

When I was twelve years old I went flying with my uncle who owned his own airplane. This guy was a known prankster but who knew to what depths he’d sink too for a laugh. Well, I found out one day.

We had been flying for about a half hour when he suddenly and abruptly said “Oh my God, we are almost out of fuel” as he pointed to the fuel gage which read empty. He turned back towards the airfield to make a quick landing. About five minutes later the engine began to sputter. I was now terrified. As the engine began to stall I was gripping the seat as hard as I could. I remembered how hard it was to breath, and seconds seemed top take hours. I remember not being able to focus my eyes very well, nor did I understand what my uncle was saying, I could hear him but I could not concentrate on what he was saying. After the engine stalled he nosed dived the plane I switched my grip from the seat to the dash and pushed myself back into my seat. I thought we were going to die. I was so scared I couldn’t even scream, not one word, just dead silence.

He then switched the empty fuel tank to a full tank and restarted the engine and he laughed his ass off.

Okay now as we look at this example I wonder what kind of tasks I could perform under these conditions of fear and adrenalin? Hmmm…Could I do algebra? No! Could I perform Pinan shodan? No? Could I perform trapping techniques? NO! Could I grab on to someone? Yes! Could I push? Yes! Could I punch? Yes!


This shows that higher process of intellect as well as finer motor activity is severely affected by stress, fear, and adrenalin. This is why we need to learn and commit to neuro-muscle memory techniques that are simple and that can be used without the higher process of the mind that do not rely on intricate movements. Because when you arrive home after a night of drinking or carousing with the Sheilas and find a 6’4’’ power lifter looking guy in your home, in the dark, who startles you from behind a corner, You can act subconsciously (without intricate mental processing) with the appropriate responses that are effective. To many techniques can cause a traffic jam affect, complex techniques can cause a freeze or a poorly executed response that can get you either killed or severely injured.


A hall mark of any good technique is simplicity. It needs to be functional under extreme pressure and it needs to be universal. Universal? Universality is essential, meaning one technique with many applications and with a simple variance it can be adaptable to many more situations.

I have one technique that can be used against any frontal attack that you can imagine anything from a lapel grab, front choke, right cross, any type of grab, flurry punches, and etc and is very effective. I do not have to memorize a technique for each different specific attack. I can defend most with one technique. I have one or two other techniques for other various and as sundry attacks that work well for attacks from behind and the side as well but they are also kept to the lowest constitute minimum. I like techniques that can be used regardless of what the attacker is doing or regardless of what attack he is using.

The best street fighters (some with absolutely no formal MA training) can beat most guys with 1-3 techniques in their arsenal, even against formally trained MAs. Some may have more but still very few such as: Jab, cross, head but, or jab, cross, hook, clinch (grab), head but, knee. Simple stuff but effective. All good street fighters have one thing in common they are mentally tough and they fight nasty, and unfair! To be good at a few techniques can be just as effective as being good with hundreds of techniques and when stress fear, and adrenalin hit even more effective and practical.

To impress your friends more is better than a few, but the reality is for real world self-defense few beats more!

well said BRAVO