Bar fight with Buk Sing Choy Li Fut jerks

[jules]

"As to credentials, I tell them this, “When you go to into a restaurant, do you ask to see the chef first and ask for his credentials, and how many years experience he has before you order your meal?” “When you visit your doctor or your dentist or before the surgeon operates on you do you ask them for their credentials!?” Like you, most people are ignorant of the protocols and have a lack of common sense, and this can be very offensive."

You do an can. That's why doctos have their degrees hanging on their walls. If you are paying for an education then you as a consumer have the right to know who you are paying money to. It's common sense. Proffesors have their credintials out in puplic and so do doctors. Saying that this is disrespectful is complete hogwash.

[jules]

link...

http://www.buksing.com/history/shane_lacey/page_6.html

[jmd161]

Shane Lacey seems to know how to use his kung-fu for real. He's also dabbled in muay thai so i've heard.

Yeah, Shane is the son of Vince Lacey ,Dave is the other brother.


jeff

[jmd161]

Correct!!!!

especially the Leopard Charp Chiu or Leopard Knuckle Fist that produce Trauma to opponent when hitted......

by Dave Lacey from the old Inside KungFu Magazine edition.....

The jumping or flying Charp Choy is a Buk Sing trademark.


jeff

[Tom Yum]

Just read Shane's training routine. Very impressive. This is what I was talking about when I said that traditional arts need modern training methods; not just the intense physical conditioning, but the contact sparring too. Nice.

Choylifut/muay thai could be an interesting combination. The straight up power from muay thai with whipping/ripping/piercing force from choy li fut.

[Garland]

...I still think you should have pistol whipped the **** out of them and taken their wallets, shoes, jackets, watches, any other jewlery, etc. I'm all for gun ownership, but I'm against gun toting. If you have one for self defense reasons...and these guys seem like typical TMA pussies you could have just beat the **** out of without drawing your piece...then why not intimidate them a little more, man, if I had to draw a gun on somebody and possibly deal with whatever repercussions there were for me doing so, I'd make damn sure that it was worth it.

If your going to whip out a gun in a bar and risk jail (or prison) time...you might as well jack the fuckers too. Man...turnabout is fair play.

[sanjiyan99]

At the risk of offending the Lacey family of Buk Sing Choy Li Fut, I will state my opinions here regarding this statement of Sifu Vince Lacey:

There have been quite a few walk-in ‘Gong Sau’ challenges that were handled by Shane and some of the students of Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut in Newark and Fremont , California . These have occurred over the past twelve years or so, (1989-2000) but Sifu Lacey is reluctant to talk about most of them. This is primarily because he does not wish to embarrass the losers any further. Secondly, there is a particular rival group that will try and use this information to discredit his Kwoon in the hope to have it closed down-they have tried before and failed miserably!

Now, if Sifu Lacey is "reluctant to talk about most of them" (walk-in gong sau matches), stating his wish not to embarrass the losers any further, why then does he, in the next breath, post up an example of one of these gong sau matches in the first place? His answer:

Please visit our web site at www.buksing.com and check the life story of Sifu Shane Lacey. Your email and my reply, along with my remembered version of the entire episode will be put up in the near future. I am not doing this to demean you, only to use it as a teaching example involving the sad lack of knowledge regarding the protocols and courtesies in the Martial Arts world today.

I do wonder at this answer of his. If his reason is to use it as a teaching example, then why not post up a story of a very formidable challenger who came in to challenge the kwoon but lost to one of his students? It would certainly do more to glorify Choy Li Fut than a story about some punks who knew next to nothing about fighting but got beaten up by the best fighter there. Such a story only shows to the world that you are nothing but a bully who delights to humiliate his opponents. If the reason is to use it as a teaching example showcasing the sad lack of knowlege regarding protocols and courtesies in the Martial Arts protocols, then why not post a story regarding the MOST BELLIGERENT and foul-mouthed challenger to darken the doors of the kwoon? But, I suppose I am not one to second guess a fighter of "higher caliber" who has had forty plus years experience compared to my only few years.

[sanjiyan99]

...I still think you should have pistol whipped the **** out of them and taken their wallets, shoes, jackets, watches, any other jewlery, etc. I'm all for gun ownership, but I'm against gun toting. If you have one for self defense reasons...and these guys seem like typical TMA pussies you could have just beat the **** out of without drawing your piece...then why not intimidate them a little more, man, if I had to draw a gun on somebody and possibly deal with whatever repercussions there were for me doing so, I'd make damn sure that it was worth it.

If your going to whip out a gun in a bar and risk jail (or prison) time...you might as well jack the fuckers too. Man...turnabout is fair play.

Well, Mr. Garland, after we had knocked down these troublemakers, and they having realized it was not feasible to continue the fight with only the body's eight weapons decided to produce some of their own -- pool cue sticks, knives, and a glass bottle. Therefore, I decided to produce the one I rely on in such situations -- my Sig Sauer P229 in .9mm format. I am no stranger to pulling the trigger to kill, having done so in Desert Storm and other places. However, the outcome was as I expected and hoped for -- the aggressors fled, and nobody got injured any further. While self-defense can be argued for and won in favor of the one put in a self-defense situation, theft cannot be so. The owner of the bar knew my friends and I and will not press charges. It is not my desire to be a "bad-ass"--I only wish to be left alone to live and let live. However, I recognize that the streets are not about bravado, or showing off, neither honor or honesty are at stake. Rather, it is about survival. That is why I pulled my gun.

[Garland]

IF they kept stepping, would you have shot?

[Garland]

By the way, don't read too much into this question, because I personally don't know what I'd do in a situation like that with a gun. What I guess I meant to say, is that once you pull a gun, if your assailants fail to flee, your pretty much out of options...?

[CLFFU]

Buk Sing and general CLF mentality

My friends and I recently came from a bar in which we were accosted by men who disagreed with our opinions spoken during private conversation amongst ourselves regarding our own negative opinions about kung fu's effectiveness in actual street combat situations. At first, they were only speaking with a raised voice, becoming more belligerent as they continued. This was where one of the men claimed himself and his friends to be students of Buk Sing Choy Li Fut. It escalated to a fight between us and them. We fought and defeated them. A lady friend who was with us was able to claw one of the men's faces with her hands and sharp nails from behind while delivering knee strikes to his lower back. When they desired to press further, I whipped out my pistol and they fled from us.

I must say that those students had a fanatical devotion to their art and/or their sifu if our personal opinions elicited that type of response from them. You would think that they believed we had uttered tellings befit of a hate crime. But we did not. Neither did we slander any other fighting style in the world, just merely stating our personal views. My friends and I practice Muay Thai but we have universal respect for all arts -- we just believe that certain arts are more practical to use than others. We also believe that people ought to mind their own business. Any students here of Buk Sing Choy Li Fut in this forum? Can anyone explain this fanatical devotion the Buk Sing CLF practitioners have for their art, their sifu? All opinions welcome.

In order to fully appreciate the mentality of the CLF practitioners you met up with in the bar, one must also understand the history and overall philosophy of Choy Lay Fut as a whole. CLF was designed as a FIGHTING system, and an aggressive one at that. Its origins are intertwined with groups that would later splinter into what we now know as Triad organizations and other underground societies, and was kept alive for many years by these same groups. I am in no way excusing the behavior of the people you met that night, and I think people ought to mind their own business too. In fact, they probably needed their asses kicked in order to bring them down to earth a bit (especially considering that they apparently weren't very good. CLF is NEVER supposed to be stiff or rigid, and techniques should always be done with power and speed.) But ALL real CLF, with its many branches, originally had the mindset of aggression in the face of aggression. Many of these branches have become a bit watered-down in their approach, yet the Buk Sing lineage still retains the original intentions.

Our school is a Buk Sing/Lee Koon Hung/Hung Sing hybrid and real world, practical fighting techniques and applications are a top priority there. By real world, I'm not talking about purely theoretical shit that will get you killed, either. The Buk Sing lineage was founded by Tarm Sarm, who was known as an exceptional fighter with a no frills, no b.s. approach. That's why his stuff worked so well. In fact, part of what makes CLF's history as a formidable style are the numerous victories against all comers, particularly Wing Chun and Muay Thai fighters. That is real Choy Lay Fut, as it was originally intended. Again, I am not taking up for the jackasses in the bar, or making excuses for them because we're "CLF cousins" or whatever. I am only pointing out the fact that at least some Choy Lay Fut styles (ours included) still refuse to be intimidated by or take any shit from anybody, whether they be from Muay Thai, Western Boxing, MMA, BJJ, Wing Chun, Karate, NASA, someone's big brother, the president, etc. Not saying you were giving them shit, but if that's how they perceived it, that would explain their attitudes and perceived need to defend their sifu and school. Just some insights from a CLF perspective.

Some other posts to this thread are quite relevant too, such as the mention of the charp choi, or "Leopard fist", which is one of the trademarks of Choy Lay Fut, and the reference to Australian CLF perhaps being better suited for fighting than its American counterpart. Grandmasters Dave and Vince Lacey were the first to formally bring real Chinese kung fu to Australia before the Buk Sing Kwoon in California was established, so from what I've heard the Aussie version of Buk Sing may be more like Hong Kong, circa 1950's. And I don't believe that Grandmaster Lacey is a bully, although I can see why you might feel that way. Sifu Lacey is a fighter of very high caliber, and is one of the most respected (and possibly, feared?) individuals in the scope of Chinese martial arts. And, one of a diminishing group who will actually back up what he says with his CLF, whether it be in gong sau or otherwise. I cannot speak for Sifu Lacey on this matter, but from what I understand about this event, it was a rather ugly and mostly unnecessary affair that was dragged out to the point of nausea. I have to believe that Sifu Lacey made the decisions he made in order to "make an example of", if you will, someone who would not get the hint. This was most likely his way of defending his school in this particular instance. Again, this is a big deal to those of us in the CLF family, and different circumstances may need different means of reconciliation.

I must say, however, that I hope Mr. Garland doesn't make the mistake of oversimplifying and generalizing when he writes of "typical TMA pussies." Not all traditional martial arts are point karate, or one step sparring like in Tae Kwon Do, and all traditional stylists are certainly NOT pussies. In fact, most Chinese systems (all of them, if taught and trained traditionally) couldn't be any further from that mess. There have been numerous times that different people from different styles have come to our school with the intention of proving something: 3 or 4 Muay Thai fighters, a couple Western boxers, Japanese Karate, military guys, Indonesian Silat, BJJ, and a few MMA fighters (those are what I remember off the top of my head), all of whom Sifu has quite easily taught to respect us and what we do. I have friends who train and fight MMA, and are very good at what they do. I have also seen MMA fighters get the ever living shit pounded out of them in the Wal-Mart parking lot and in bars. So, just because someone chooses to train traditionally, and in the way that these systems were meant to be trained, doesn't mean that they are any less capable or effective than someone who trains in MMA. CLF is also cross-trained, it's just that our CLF is cross-trained with other Chinese styles. We haven't looked to Jiu Jitsu, because we have Shiu Chiao. We haven't incorporated Muay Thai, because we have the vicious elbow/knee and locking attacks of White Eyebrow's in-fighting, and we're Choy Lay Fut. Maybe if more traditional Chinese styles would train harder and dig deeper into their own traditions, rather than trying to make a quick buck by selling the most popular Japanese/Brazilian hybrid systems (at traditional Chinese schools, by the way), it would be easier for those outside of our traditions to respect us. Hopefully, if you ever run into CLF practitioners again, they will be of this type, the type that you can respect as people AND fighters. The type that will show you that same respect as well.

[jubaji]

More than 5 years after?

[CLFFU]

5 years after? Oh, more than 5 years after the post. Yeah, I know, but I just happened upon it now, and figured if there were any questions still out there like the ones posted (or if anyone even cares anymore), I'd do my best to offer a CLF perspective. Or, at least my perspective. Besides, the guys in this style that pick fights and then get their asses kicked don't make the rest of us look good either. People seem to have a guilt by association way of looking at things when it comes to MA systems.

[Garland]

Let it go.

[jmd161]

More than 5 years after?

You know, I've never understood why people make such a deal of thread time?


If someone comes on a forum and post to a old thread.... people come from everywhere pointing out how old a thread was. Most of the time if someone comes to a forum asking a question, those same people will usually tell them to use the search function, it's been discussed before leading someone to an older thread.

Then they point out that this person replied to a old thread hahaha lol too funny!

jeff