had my first wing chun class today

[Thai Bri]

But, of course, these so called WingChun classes merely borrow training methods from other schools, yet still pretend that it all came from Wing Chun.

They're hypocrites, as well as pencil necked weeds.

[VTGreg]

Well, I believe in the skills that I have from training hard at the basement in london. I don't know about other schools of wing chun. The training was much more combative and intense than anything I ever did in JKD training. Boxing training was still the most physically challenging workout I ever got, but being in the ring was still a sport. BJJ training with the gracies was great, but does not negate the fact that I can have my eyes gouged out as I grab a guy. There are pluses and minuses with all systems. One has to be smart enough to practice the most important things in a system. For example, Bruce really worked the pak, lop and jao sao because he found that these were the only things in VT that he ever saw being used in a fight, other than a straight blast.

[Tom Yum]

You enter all these what ifs?

Spear fingers are fine. But have you actually tried to punch someone, even in an MMA setting with a commited, spontaneous grappler much less a free-for-all?

I'm talking about being able to punch, kick, knee, sweep, throw and grapple. Sure, an inexperienced-pure grappler might come in for a shoot and make it obvious, you sprawl and make him pay, but a really experienced grappler is going to make you stay in his range for a long time. Denying this is denying reality.

I'm not dissing the usefullness of spear fingers, because they are pretty usefull, but this shouldn't be the answer to ever single rebuttal against MMA. Oh yeah, what if when you end up in the grappler's clinch during an exchange, he starts biting to set you up for something else...but that's not part of grappling.

What if a boxer stomps on your foot in the middle of an exchange, rams his head into your face and punches your nads....that's not part of ring fighting.

The point, these MMA bouts with rules are the best way to test systems and individuals without all the nasties, that EVERY art has. Can you spear finger your buddy full-contact in your VT training and expect him back the next day to practice chi sao?

People claim that ring fighting isn't street fighting - true, but do you think grapplers are going to stick to sport jj rules if you fight them on the street? Do you think thaiboxers are going to hold out on their elbows and knees and yes, spear fingers or firearms if they are fighting to defend themselves.

Hey man, I think there's usefull stuff in the VT system, but you've got to stop kidding yourself into thinking spear fingers are the answer to everything. Its an effective & deadly technique, but if you can't land a punch in a spontaneous/resisting environment, what are your chances of landing your spear fingers?

[AlexJitsu]

...but if you can't land a punch in a spontaneous/resisting environment, what are your chances of landing your spear fingers?

Very low.

[VTGreg]

Tom Yum, was your reply to me? If so, I never mentioned "spear fingers". And I gave no what if's. It's good that you train hard to deal with all of these scenarios - that's reality. Biu Jee encourages one to look outside the system to deal with a situation that is not covered by it. That is where all of my training in other areas would come in handy. Your response is perfect for those who doubt their own abilities.

[Tom Yum]

Biu Jee encourages one to look outside the system to deal with a situation that is not covered by it. That is where all of my training in other areas would come in handy. Your response is perfect for those who doubt their own abilities.

You mentioned eye gauging against a grappler, earlier I believe.

The only environment that this is legit is in an all out fight. As I mentioned every art has their dirty tactics that are not legal in MMA, especially judo and JJ and if the scenario is one of all out fighting, nothing is holding anyone back from using them.

As I've said before I think the WT system has good stuff, but if you can't apply and use the non-lethal techniques in a spontaneous, resisting environment then you have even less of a chance of pulling it off when you deal with non-compliance.

[kiddbjj]

i suppose i should jump back into this fray seeing as how i started it.

look, put simply i don't plan to go back to the wc class. i train bjj regularly and their approach suits me to a tee.

we learn techniques, practice them until we can remember them (sometimes as little as ten minutes for some is enough eg. top figure 4 arm lock) then we spend the other half of the class wrestling. easy. i have learnt things literally minutes before we sparred and then used them against a fully resisting opponent. now thats an efficient style as far as im concerned.

i am a big time enthusiast for matt thorntons idea of baseing your training around "aliveness" for real results.

i have also competed in a bjj comp and i can confidently confirm that probably 60% of what you have learnt goes out the window when you are really busting your hump trying to beat the other guy. not because the techniques dont work but because you havent practiced them enough. but the staple basics like upa roll, hip escapes, basic guard passes, arm bar, figure 4 that i had (white belt no stripes) were rock solid for me. they enabled me to win my first match, lose the second on submission, and lose the third on points (both against 3 stripers i might add).

im sold on bjj, its fun and it works. what more do you want. wing chun (or at least the wc i went to) needs to get back in the water and base its training on aliveness.

[Hardball]

i suppose i should jump back into this fray seeing as how i started it.

look, put simply i don't plan to go back to the wc class. i train bjj regularly and their approach suits me to a tee.

we learn techniques, practice them until we can remember them (sometimes as little as ten minutes for some is enough eg. top figure 4 arm lock) then we spend the other half of the class wrestling. easy. i have learnt things literally minutes before we sparred and then used them against a fully resisting opponent. now thats an efficient style as far as im concerned.

i am a big time enthusiast for matt thorntons idea of baseing your training around "aliveness" for real results.

i have also competed in a bjj comp and i can confidently confirm that probably 60% of what you have learnt goes out the window when you are really busting your hump trying to beat the other guy. not because the techniques dont work but because you havent practiced them enough. but the staple basics like upa roll, hip escapes, basic guard passes, arm bar, figure 4 that i had (white belt no stripes) were rock solid for me. they enabled me to win my first match, lose the second on submission, and lose the third on points (both against 3 stripers i might add).

im sold on bjj, its fun and it works. what more do you want. wing chun (or at least the wc i went to) needs to get back in the water and base its training on aliveness.

What about multiple attack situations? Is BJJ preparing you to deal with that? If not, are you planning to cross train in some other art?

[Hardball]

i suppose i should jump back into this fray seeing as how i started it.

look, put simply i don't plan to go back to the wc class. i train bjj regularly and their approach suits me to a tee.

we learn techniques, practice them until we can remember them (sometimes as little as ten minutes for some is enough eg. top figure 4 arm lock) then we spend the other half of the class wrestling. easy. i have learnt things literally minutes before we sparred and then used them against a fully resisting opponent. now thats an efficient style as far as im concerned.

i am a big time enthusiast for matt thorntons idea of baseing your training around "aliveness" for real results.

i have also competed in a bjj comp and i can confidently confirm that probably 60% of what you have learnt goes out the window when you are really busting your hump trying to beat the other guy. not because the techniques dont work but because you havent practiced them enough. but the staple basics like upa roll, hip escapes, basic guard passes, arm bar, figure 4 that i had (white belt no stripes) were rock solid for me. they enabled me to win my first match, lose the second on submission, and lose the third on points (both against 3 stripers i might add).

im sold on bjj, its fun and it works. what more do you want. wing chun (or at least the wc i went to) needs to get back in the water and base its training on aliveness.

What about multiple attack situations? Is BJJ preparing you to deal with that? If not, are you planning to cross train in some other art?

[kiddbjj]

yeah i do stand up stuff as well. basically a mix of boxing, muay thai and mma stuff.
when i did kung fu i did plenty of multiple opponent sparring and i can say with some certainty that your odds are crap at best. hit hard hit fast then run like the wind forrest. if you stop to put in extra hits on one guy eg. grab and knee, or grab to throw them, most of the time the others will be on you like stink on a dog.
the other option i used with some success was to use one guy as a shield ie. just shove or kick him in the way of the other guys long enough to start your sprint.

[LittleDemon]

Wing Tsun

Hey guy's does anyone on here train WT kung fu and if so where do you train and who is your instructor?

Little Demon

[Hardball]

yeah i do stand up stuff as well. basically a mix of boxing, muay thai and mma stuff.
when i did kung fu i did plenty of multiple opponent sparring and i can say with some certainty that your odds are crap at best. hit hard hit fast then run like the wind forrest.

Sounds like you're well rounded. See you around the forumns.

Bowing Out!