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**Hot Sauce** · 03-24-2005, 04:36 PM

WT in Europe

I have to agree that the whole structure in EWTO is designed for mass tutoring, where quantity is better than quality and money the main factor for redesigning the whole WT system to fit Europeans, by doing so neglecting the whole Hong Kong WT which is in my opinion a more direct way, not to mention time saving way to learn LT WT and not KK WT.

Nevertheless we need to keep in mind that all lineages of WC, including WT, are just different interpretations of WC made by each instructor. In the end everything is WC as long as they follow the WC principles, and WC is a fighting system, not a self defence system like many people believe. It’s basically EWTO who started to spread the self defence concepts in order to commercialize WC and get more money.

I’m very sorry that you after 7 years haven’t learned to fight yet. My personal experience is that after at least 6 months of training you will be able to defend yourself in basic street situations and it is also to my belief that after 3(?) years of intense training you should have learned the whole system assuming that your teacher knows the whole system or most of it.

Anyway my point is that it all depends on the teacher. I’ve met many good WT instructors and many bad. The WT system itself is a perfectly valid system for fighting, as well as many other WC lineages. That’s what I believe.

BTW I’ve heard that the UK WT organization and instructors are really off, that they shouldn’t even have the grade they have and I also heard that there was an instructor from Hong Kong who wasn’t even allowed to teach within the organization when he moved there.

Almost forgot, I’m not training WT and generally I don’t encourage people to start training, unless they find a good teacher who is willing to teach.

Just my opinions, don't take them to seriously.

**LittleDemon** · 03-24-2005, 06:15 PM

Hiya,

Thanks for your well structured responce Hot Sauce to my dilema lol but i don't even know how they can say its a form of self defence when even me after 7 yrs being acclaimed very good at WT can admit to myself i wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance out there on the street, because everything in WT is soft, there's no balance.

We were burgaled 4 yrs ago now and they came into the house when me and my family were asleep i was downstairs and they only did the downstairs of the house but they came into my bedroom and stole some things but they drugged my dog and could have done a lot worse especially if id woken up.

If id tried defending myself with the WT skills id learned i wouldn't be here today its just a blessing i didn't wake up - but back then i actually still believed i could have done something with what i knew because hey i was 15 and nieve and furious they had the audacity to burgal our home when we were in it!!!!

I can see the changes from WT to WC - yes WT has helped with my co-ordination and with all the hand positions like tan sau etc but the training is all theory and unless your bloody amazing like some of the masters ive seen then the average joe better have life insurance if they buy into the whole "self defence" sales pitch.

Little Demon!

**Hot Sauce** · 03-25-2005, 06:08 AM

WT is soft but not weak, as they say in Hong Kong. Your training becomes what you make it, no matter if you train soccer or studying maths, or in this case WT or WC. Of course if your teacher isn’t teaching you WT then you won’t learn WT and if he only is teaching the art of WT and not the fighting aspect of WT, it will often take a lot longer to become a good WT fighter.

I’m not sure what you mean with balance. If you mean it’s too soft, and not have any real applications, then you are very wrong or you have been taught wrong. WC is soft, yes but it’s called soft because we don’t fight force with force. For example a tan sau should be able to withhold almost any amount of force in a vector. We don’t try to fight this force with another vector straight to it, instead we use another vector with another direction and therefore nullifying the incoming force. It’s like a big ball filled with air on water, you can’t press it down because it will only rotate and lead the downward force in another direction.

About the burglars 4 years ago, no matter what martial art you train it’s never a good idea to fight unknown burglars. The first thing you should do in self defence is to run, if you can’t, it shouldn’t be your first priority to go into hand to hand combat since the burglars maybe have hidden weapons which could be lethal. Risking your life for things that can be replaced is never a good idea. It might be a better idea to train FMA or something if you are after self-defence in my own opinion, since the weapon part of WC and fighting multiple opponents, comes in the end of the system.

I agree with you that some schools give their students a kind of ego boost and instead of helping them; it will only get them in more trouble. Since WC basically a hand to hand combat system designed to be used in China when weapons weren’t legal it’s not suitable to use it against burglars. However if you were forced to engage in hand to hand combat with them, it doesn’t matter what you train because they outnumbered you. Although if you take them one by one like in movies, there is a very high possibility to take them down assuming they don’t have any weapons and that they don’t pick up any object or for that matter not skilled in any martial art. Or that you establish contact with their arms directly and control them with chi sau to open them up and finish them.

Also I believe that you could easily knock them down with a vertical fist followed up with some elbows or using the first part of chum kiu to grab their head and eye gouge, followed by twisting their head and attack from behind by stomping behind their knees. Just a few examples that’s required to know according to the WT syllabus after the 5th SG, if I remember correctly.

Anyways the psychology of self defence is a lot more important than what you train. You need to be aggressive on the outside etc.

WT is a lot more theory than other martial arts, as you said, but if you don’t train the theories there is no point in learning them no matter what MA you train. Everything I know about WT works and if they don’t work for you, you shouldn’t keep training them unless you find out why they don’t work for you and train them until they work before learning something new.

**LittleDemon** · 03-25-2005, 06:24 AM

Im not saying Wing Tsun is "Weak", im just stating that in my opinion there are better methods of self defence then Wing Tsun i trained since i was 12 for 7 yrs and i can only voice my opinion.

We don't learn how to go backwards with our feet whilst defending - yes its always a good thing to pursue forwards but sometimes things can happen and on the street its so un-predictable i mean for me personally id want a quick fast method of disabling an attacker.

Also what was never brought up in my classes were the differences between the importance of women's self defence to men's (not being sexist) because a man is more likely to fight over a spilt pint then a woman.

A woman would most likely be trying to defend herself against an aggressive husband or partner, a rapist or mugger etc.

Women dont have the natural instinct to fight it has to be devlloped im not saying the potential isnt there but most women are firghtened of confrontation and its why i decided in school to take up some form of self defence because, i had to grow up very fast watching my best friend go through hell with her parents divorce during our childhood years. It was phyisical violence both of us witnessed and experienced between her parents and we learned from a very young age the world can be a cruel place.

I was also beaten up by one of my bf's so yeah i know the improtance of self defence, and all imsaying is now that ive left the WT organisation i feel i have the freedom to go and try arts that will give me an advantage in a fight situation.

WT always bragged it is the "best" martial art in the world and how crap things like Karate is (no joke) you cannot generalise a whole martial art when people develop their skills differently.

LD

**Thai Bri** · 03-26-2005, 07:32 AM

Now didn't your Uncle Bri tell you these things months (even years) ago? Now woman, do yourself a favour and get here www.senshido.com

Theres a section specifically for women on the forum, but you'd be welcome anywhere of course. Check out Helen Stranzl. She can kick 99.9% of male backsides and still looks like a model.

Trust your Uncle Bri. You know you should........

**LittleDemon** · 03-26-2005, 01:34 PM

Hello uncle

((((hugs)))))))) have missed our chats on here

Yes and youw ere right but when id been brainwashed and training WT for 7 yrs can ya blame a girl im just glad i saw the truth for myself and thanks for backing me up on what the WT really is

thanks also for believing in me even though i used to say how good WT was oh how wrong i was!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LD

**Thai Bri** · 03-27-2005, 04:54 AM

I feel that good Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun etc. is like Karate. Hard to find because of the mountains of crap bearing the same name.

You get yourself to the next UK Senshido seminar and tell us what you think. Should be happening some time later in the year.

**LittleDemon** · 03-27-2005, 07:32 AM

Hi Uncle thai

Im hoping when i have enough saved money form personal training to go to asia and seek out some good Masters of different styles and check out real chinese martial arts - all i want to to is learn and train martial arts i dont want to get involved with political crap.

I would have in the past defended WT to the hilt because its all i knew but i have seen teh truth for myself it was not easy and it was a difficult time for me coming to terms with things hence my depression

beliving everything id thought about the WT to be a lie and that what people were saying about it was all true epscially students who left the organisation for similar reasons.

Onwarda and upwards though - i dont know if i can make the senshido seminar i think im in spain then but will double check.

Thanks

Little Demon

**Yu Law** · 03-28-2005, 03:23 PM

ummmm, u do know that Wing Chun and "Ving Tsung or Wing Tsun" only differ. in spelling and pronounciation right?

A lot of schools in both modified and traditional wing chun use both forms of spelling.

So which one did u quit and which one did u join? Modified or Traditional.

Because if u quit Modified to join traitional u made the wrong choice. I've tried both and along with pple who are of higher level's (sifu's) we all agree that TWC is much more proficient and street-ready than MWC.

If u left the Modified style u may not know it to be called Modified so i'll just say that it is the version that drags the feet instead of picking them up, u use a sort of back weighted stance, and u your Fook Sao is has the fingers pointing horizontally instead of downwrad like a crane.

just wanna know what u did

**IBOPM** · 03-29-2005, 01:10 AM

Its not as simple as Traditional and Modified. The different lines are VERY modified. There's the famous Leung Ting line which uses the spelling Wing Tsun which some people call modified even though its a generalization. There's the William Cheung line which they call Traditional. There are a whole lot of other lineage because Yip Man had a number of good students. I live in Toronto as well. Which Wing Chun school do you go to, Yu?

**Yu Law** · 03-30-2005, 12:18 AM

actually i just moved to Ottawa and i train at a club there. But in Toronto i went to A wing CHun school in Richmond Hill/Thornhill which is now closed.

WHere do u go?

**IBOPM** · 03-30-2005, 12:43 AM

I go to this school. Don't be decieved, he is the best instructor I know. Plus it is a very good environment.

**Yu Law** · 03-30-2005, 02:07 AM

cool, i've always been interested in Wu Shu because of the high flying moves, but i think im too old to start that now. And i don't really want to perform cause im really behind every1 my age.

I did Tae Kwon Doe for 2 years i wish i found WU Shu instead.

But i really like WIng Chun and although it isn't as flashy some of the trapping moves and counters are cool as hell.

**IBOPM** · 03-30-2005, 02:10 AM

Yeah its all cool. Note that I take Wushu, Wing Chun, AND Tai Chi all at that same place. Its cool man, I wish you lived still lived here so I could show you around.

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