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Shaolin martial arts school in Shandong, China

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  • #31
    BTW Jab902, no one can authenticate or verify anything, unless they were there themselves. Think about it. You read history books. They tell what happened and when it happened. Or do they? You see, unless you were there yourself, you cannot be absolutely sure whether it happened or not. This does not mean that i do not believe anyone, i mean why would they lie to me....why would they tell me the truth....

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    • #32
      Thanks for your positive responses, people. And negative as well.


      47MartialMan
      ..I don't want to attack you personally, but i do want to clear some things up for you.

      1. I have lived and trained in China for 1 year.

      2. I have met people of your type many times. You have a certain view of "authentic" martial arts as being some mystic, ancient, secret and devastating entity that is passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years. This view is not in touch with reality.
      Shaolin Temple had its "ups and downs" over the course of years. During some periods of time, it was destroyed and didn't exist at all. Then it was "revived" and rebuilt. This didn't just happen in the 1970's.. It happened many times in the past.

      As far as business, yes. Everyone wants to earn money. If you think people exist for whom martial arts are more important than money, then you're wrong. Money is the garant of your existance, and existance is the most important thing for any human being. The difference is that our masters EARN their money by providing you good training. Many others want to GET your money by cheating you into believing that you're training something great and amazing (authentic..?) but at the end you'll only be that "authentic" fighter (read below).

      3. I do agree with you on a certain point though. Only hard work and persistence will show you the way. Also, you're not knocking the skill of our masters. Respect. But you are knocking what they have trained in. But how can you do that? My masters trained and LIVED in Shaolin temple for 10+ years. They didn't just come on weekends to an hour-and-a-half class in their local "authentic martial arts school." They lived there. They have endured things that you didn't think were possible. Sh*t conditions, bad food and training that is inhuman. Not too many people endured this "Shaolin training." I mean the Chinese people.. foreigners usually can't stand such training for more than a month. And what is Shaolin in your opinion? Meditating and chanting "Omitofo! Buddha bless you!" in front of burning incense?

      4. Put two men against eachother in the ring. Lets say that the "fake Shaolin propaganda" guy wins over the "authentic practitioner who certified w/ a 100-year old grandmaster who can't walk" guy. All that the authentic guy is left with is his authenticity. Good for him.
      Just as you said, hard work in training is the only thing that matters. Authenticity is the real hype and propaganda in my opinion.

      I have also seen people that came to China who have trained in some "Authentic Ta Jiji Mei-Hoor of 98 Stars" martial art for 20 years. However, they couldn't take the training that we did, and left shortly after. In sparring, those people were a complete sh*t. Sorry guy, but after only 1 year of training, i'm not afraid to spar with anyone. I'm not saying i would kick anyone's ass (1 year is not enough to kick anyone's asses), but the training that we did makes you think that nothing can be too hard.

      Make your conclusions..

      Comment


      • #33
        Ok-I see your reasoning for "defending" the hype-
        Originally posted by shizo
        Thanks for your positive responses, people. And negative as well.


        47MartialMan
        ..I don't want to attack you personally, but i do want to clear some things up for you.
        Thanks for the descretion.

        1. I have lived and trained in China for 1 year.
        Only a year? I guess you werent there 30 years ago.
        Hey, it is still a wonderful place.


        2. I have met people of your type many times. You have a certain view of "authentic" martial arts as being some mystic, ancient, secret and devastating entity that is passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years.
        This is not my view. I dont view martial arts martial arts as being some mystic, ancient, secret and devastating entity. others do that believe in such tales and unproven data.

        Shaolin Temple had its "ups and downs" over the course of years. During some periods of time, it was destroyed and didn't exist at all. Then it was "revived" and rebuilt. This didn't just happen in the 1970's.. It happened many times in the past.
        I agree, it has been rebuilt and destoryed many times


        As far as business, yes. Everyone wants to earn money. If you think people exist for whom martial arts are more important than money, then you're wrong. Money is the garant of your existance, and existance is the most important thing for any human being.
        Hype, propaganda, over satuated commercialism, become come ground for something to get out of proportion and/or over-rated. Money is not the garant of a human being's existance. It is desired.


        The difference is that our masters EARN their money by providing you good training.
        No, the difference is not any of my past instructors/masters had earned their money from martial arts, they had other trades.


        Many others want to GET your money by cheating you into believing that you're training something great and amazing (authentic..?) but at the end you'll only be that "authentic" fighter (read below).
        You will be a "authentic fighter" without a "authentic" lineage.

        3. I do agree with you on a certain point though. Only hard work and persistence will show you the way. Also, you're not knocking the skill of our masters.
        Yes, I give credit to any dedication and acquirement of skills

        But you are knocking what they have trained in. But how can you do that?
        Because it isnt about the place-per its true/"authentic origin. But has people going there for its foremost attainment. How many times, if someone is to mention Shaolin, that Kung fu is the next topic of discussion? how com the foremost topic of discussion isnt about Ch'an Buddhism upon mention of the name? the purpose of the temple wasnt for martial arts. Yet, the martial arts took the "front seat"?


        My masters trained and LIVED in Shaolin temple for 10+ years. They didn't just come on weekends to an hour-and-a-half class in their local "authentic martial arts school." They lived there.
        Of ocurse, the PROC needed them there to "promote the temple".


        They have endured things that you didn't think were possible. Sh*t conditions, bad food and training that is inhuman.
        So that is why many (supposed monks) are making profits, eating meat, and drinking beer?Not directed to your instructors


        Not too many people endured this "Shaolin training." I mean the Chinese people.. foreigners usually can't stand such training for more than a month.
        Because foreigners have acquired the leisures of life. When someone has a goal to go to a place for it namesake, then they have to adjust to those conditions.


        And what is Shaolin in your opinion? Meditating and chanting "Omitofo! Buddha bless you!" in front of burning incense?
        Shaolin, in my opinion is about Buddhism. Unless Buddhist ideals are the foremost, or forerunner of the practices, it becomes satorial. at least with "Christian Martial Art Organization, Christ is first.


        4. Put two men against eachother in the ring. Lets say that the "fake Shaolin propaganda" guy wins over the "authentic practitioner who certified w/ a 100-year old grandmaster who can't walk" guy. All that the authentic guy is left with is his authenticity. Good for him.
        Just as you said, hard work in training is the only thing that matters. Authenticity is the real hype and propaganda in my opinion.
        That is because Authenticity, cannot be proven by the likes of the Shaolin Bandwagoneers.


        I have also seen people that came to China who have trained in some "Authentic Ta Jiji Mei-Hoor of 98 Stars" martial art for 20 years. However, they couldn't take the training that we did, and left shortly after.
        Im not knocking the dedication, but the name for namesake. Afterall, you were lured there yourself for its martial arts foremost.
        Talk about training, for most people with a "life", there are more things than training so hard. For what-of course, the hype, propaganda, recognition.


        In sparring, those people were a complete sh*t. Sorry guy, but after only 1 year of training, i'm not afraid to spar with anyone.
        So is this what you only accomplished after a year-a boasteorus way of thinking and non-fear? A little over-confident-hence more hype.

        I'm not saying i would kick anyone's ass (1 year is not enough to kick anyone's asses), but the training that we did makes you think that nothing can be too hard.
        Look-there are types of military training that can be as hard or harder.
        At least with the military their are many benefits.
        So what if one trains at Shaolin. Does it make them better than anyone else? No.
        Does it make their training more intrihuing? To them, yes-it is why they went there in the first place.


        Your points/views/opinions are understood. I respect the manner to which you present yourself (except the over-confidence).

        If shaolin was ever about its practitioners, it will not be about martial arts-first.

        Check the article links I has posted-many others have come to think somewhat like I do.

        Comment


        • #34
          tis my opinion.......

          "Talk about training, for most people with a "life", there are more things than training so hard. For what-of course, the hype, propaganda, recognition" Although,it has occured to me,perhaps,some actually trained under shaolin to follow in footsteps(distant relative,idol,etc.)...to study Buddhism and the arts(meditation,hard & soft styles,breathing excersises,etc.)...and has chose this path to be their life.It is not true that all whom learned that way (passed down Gen. to Gen.) have opened up schools and trained others...trained publicly or privately for cash.Back to footsteps...I've grandfathers and other relatives (some still alive) whom been through WWII,Nam,Korea,and friends & relatives in Iraq right now...some of these youngsters I know (nephews,little cousins,some of their little brothers,etc.) want to follow in their footsteps...I don't believe they wanna just do it to be gung-ho and go blast someone at war or get blasted for that matter...they're probably just proud of those that came before them,stood the test of time,and respect them and their feats, serve the country,etc.The point is footsteps are there to be followed...if the training replicates the "old school" then ,in my opinion,the only difference would be time (century),and perhaps,minuscule things such as;toilets,food selection,unshaven domes,etc.Training through an authetic lineage doesn't mean that they are better,indeed,but it's just ones desire...and if he/she becomes an authentic martial artist from that path through yrs. & yrs. of hard,rigorous mental & physical training is their any hype and propanda in that..?

          Comment


          • #35
            my brain is being tickled....

            But not one is "authentic" It would be like saying that one Christian denomination is the "genuine/authentic" one. If it is not taught a Shaolin, as with anything after generation-becomes diluted, it can no longer be "authentic". (For example-not even spaghetti is a "authentic" Italian food)

            Furthermore, Shaolin is a place. A reference. Like, New York City police department. Does this tend to state that New York has the one "authentic" police department? Okay,I've come to a BRIEF conclsion:we're all freafin muts,the Holy Bible has things added and some things taken out(those whom are responsible will burn eternally),spaghetti is now just a wet noodle (to think I paid extra at some classy joint ),NYPD is full of renta-a-cops,and to think I've trained in some traditional arts when really they are just watered down,caveman,Flintstones type bashing.... ...however,theirs some truth in humor

            Comment


            • #36
              47MM nice posts, your point of view comes across in a very logical and interesting way, but I think your detractors are missing the point.

              Comment


              • #37
                I don't know.. i'm not into religion myself. However, our Shaolin masters are buddhists. They pay respects to buddha at any temples that we visited and they have a little shrine in their room.

                Still, i don't see the point of this authenticity that you're talking about. Please explain?

                To me, "lineage" is the biggest scam after mcdojo.

                Comment


                • #38
                  47 Man has some good points

                  almost any martial art out of china want to be link or use the name

                  it truly is hyped and comercial crazed

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Sorry to break into the conversation but to state my "opinion" I think this is the longest argument over semantics on the any of these forums.

                    Here is a definition "Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied: an authentic medieval sword."

                    By these arguments nothing is nothing virtually all styles an systems are meaningless. So for example If I leave the US I am not an authentic American. If a French born and raised in France trained in the best culinary schools in France and leaves for Spain...it is no longer French cooking. There are points that are subjective and then there are points that are clearly right and wrong.


                    There is nothing wrong with using the name Shaolin. If you did not how would you know if it is a style you wanted to study. If I went to by soup should there only be one label for every brand and I would just have to find out if it is the brand I like by tasting when I get home (sorry for the food example I am starved)

                    If the general public has a misperception of CMA that may not be the fault of the school rather the media, Hollywood and the theatre companies.

                    If I go to the Kodokan to study Judo and receive a BB in Judo from the Kodokan I will state that what I teach is authentic Kodokan Judo assuming I make not changes. Now if you want to argue that The kodokan of 2005 is not the same (authentic) as in the 1890's (and you would be correct) that is fine but it do not make me less a kodokan judoka.

                    47: I can certainly understand your frustration with the corruption and bastardization of MAs but remember lineage is important and the reality everyone has to learn to be an educated consumer in the US or wherever. Everyone jumps on the flavor of the day (JKD, BJJ, MMA etc) some get good training and some get crap

                    anyway my $1.00

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Are You Hatin Or What?

                      Originally posted by chicken legs
                      47MM nice posts, your point of view comes across in a very logical and interesting way, but I think your detractors are missing the point.
                      Read all posts before you jump into conclusions...be open minded...and maybe you can make a point that can relate to what everyone is trying to get across................I'm learning things by the way...It doesn't hurt to give opinions as long as they make sense!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Very well said....

                        Originally posted by IPON
                        Sorry to break into the conversation but to state my "opinion" I think this is the longest argument over semantics on the any of these forums.

                        Here is a definition "Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied: an authentic medieval sword."

                        By these arguments nothing is nothing virtually all styles an systems are meaningless. So for example If I leave the US I am not an authentic American. If a French born and raised in France trained in the best culinary schools in France and leaves for Spain...it is no longer French cooking. There are points that are subjective and then there are points that are clearly right and wrong.


                        There is nothing wrong with using the name Shaolin. If you did not how would you know if it is a style you wanted to study. If I went to by soup should there only be one label for every brand and I would just have to find out if it is the brand I like by tasting when I get home (sorry for the food example I am starved)

                        If the general public has a misperception of CMA that may not be the fault of the school rather the media, Hollywood and the theatre companies.

                        If I go to the Kodokan to study Judo and receive a BB in Judo from the Kodokan I will state that what I teach is authentic Kodokan Judo assuming I make not changes. Now if you want to argue that The kodokan of 2005 is not the same (authentic) as in the 1890's (and you would be correct) that is fine but it do not make me less a kodokan judoka.

                        47: I can certainly understand your frustration with the corruption and bastardization of MAs but remember lineage is important and the reality everyone has to learn to be an educated consumer in the US or wherever. Everyone jumps on the flavor of the day (JKD, BJJ, MMA etc) some get good training and some get crap

                        anyway my $1.00
                        Media does screw things up...has its good and bad...and without them we probably wouldn't be on this subject(hype,authenticity,propaganda,etc.)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          ???????

                          Originally posted by shizo
                          I don't know.. i'm not into religion myself. However, our Shaolin masters are buddhists. They pay respects to buddha at any temples that we visited and they have a little shrine in their room.

                          Still, i don't see the point of this authenticity that you're talking about. Please explain?

                          To me, "lineage" is the biggest scam after mcdojo.
                          Which post are you refering to?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shizo
                            They have endured things that you didn't think were possible. ..

                            ............................................

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Nicely posted
                              Originally posted by IPON
                              Sorry to break into the conversation but to state my "opinion" I think this is the longest argument over semantics on the any of these forums.
                              But the arguement or my basis of opinion is not about semantics-but origin of purpose. It wasnt the purpose of Shaolin to go out and teach matial arts to anyone with a pocket book. It wasn't the purpose of Shaolin to become recognized for such the existence of martial arts.

                              Here is a definition "Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied: an authentic medieval sword."
                              Authentic Shaolin would be on the teachings of Ch'an. Its origin. Its purpose.


                              By these arguments nothing is nothing virtually all styles an systems are meaningless. So for example If I leave the US I am not an authentic American. If a French born and raised in France trained in the best culinary schools in France and leaves for Spain...it is no longer French cooking. There are points that are subjective and then there are points that are clearly right and wrong.
                              You would be a authentic American, French Cook, whatever.
                              Because your origin-is authentic.
                              But you have a basis to prove what/who you are.
                              You have birth and legal documents, and many generartions of a family lineage to give such proof of you as a person.
                              If you were a French Cook, Physician, etc., you would be authentic by the burden of proof and where or by whom you had picked up your skill.

                              Shaolin monks of today have no such authenicity. If they did, they would not being teaching martial arts and attached to a place for namesake.
                              Part of Buddhism is to be detached from such things.



                              There is nothing wrong with using the name Shaolin. If you did not how would you know if it is a style you wanted to study. If I went to by soup should there only be one label for every brand and I would just have to find out if it is the brand I like by tasting when I get home (sorry for the food example I am starved)
                              There is everything wrong with using the name. For Shaolin wasnt to be a "soup" (martial art), but misnamed/mislabeled as one. So in picking out a soup, whats inside isnt so. One was mislead to believe in is soup inside, but are in bliss to realise that it is salted water. (Reminds me of Feing Shui and bottled water]


                              If the general public has a misperception of CMA that may not be the fault of the school rather the media, Hollywood and the theatre companies.
                              Yet, the CMA, Shaolin, PROC, and people with intrique, lead the way in such.


                              If I go to the Kodokan to study Judo and receive a BB in Judo from the Kodokan I will state that what I teach is authentic Kodokan Judo assuming I make not changes. Now if you want to argue that The kodokan of 2005 is not the same (authentic) as in the 1890's (and you would be correct) that is fine but it do not make me less a kodokan judoka.
                              But the Kodokan didnt start or originate as a religious practice...thats the difference. It was a martial art to start off with.


                              47: I can certainly understand your frustration with the corruption and bastardization of MAs but remember lineage is important and the reality everyone has to learn to be an educated consumer in the US or wherever. Everyone jumps on the flavor of the day (JKD, BJJ, MMA etc) some get good training and some get crap

                              But I am not knocking the training, but the misconception of what it supposed to stand for. Along with the excessive hype propaganda, and commercialism.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Wisdom

                                47MM,I am glad you joined in again...you are educating and have valid points...would you mind quoting my post above on the footsteps one.I apologize for the silly post(not personal)...I'm just a goofball at times havin a little fun.

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