Getting weaker, Or getting stronger?

[gong fu]

personally i believe martial artists and fighters in general are getting weaker as the years go by, yeah we may look better on the outside now days, but compared to the old traditional ways that seem to be dying out, in my opinion we are slacking, the old ways should not be left to die out, modern fighters may look tough but there conditioning is weak, the more we rely on equipment to train with and padding to protect us, we are losing touch with real training methods,

wich are you? traditional or modern? or a mix of the both? i prefer to train using my body and things around me but never rely on other things to help me train, i dont use gloves or padding or soft punchbags, my punchbag is filled with stones and rocks,

stop punching soft padding people, atleast hit a big old tree, or something harder than your fist, not that inferior modern shit, no dissrespect to modern trainers, i cross train with modern techniques, but i dont lose touch with the old traditional training methods, once we had real fighting warriors now all that seems to be left as a whole is a bunch of steroid taking guys who think there macho because they knocked a few people out in UFC or "the ring".

what are other peoples opinions about traditional training VS modern training.
keep it friendly please we havent got a mat to fight on here so lets not fight atall, (calm and productive) not (aggressive and enraged) keep a level head if you cant keep a level head while talking about fighting, how can you expect to keep a level head whilst actually fighting someone?.

do not run into battle before you have learned to walk away from it.

[shaolin-warrior]

just my opinion, but wouldn't it be better to hit something hard with something soft and something soft with something hard?

[seanyseanybean]

i dont use gloves or padding or soft punchbags, my punchbag is filled with stones and rocks.

That is so dangerous. Surely that will do the absoloute oposite to conditioning. It'll give you loads of problems later on in life. If i were you i would make sure that your not doing yourself more harm than good.

[seppuku]

im not sure any martial artists, at any time in the past, ever tried using whats effectively a stone pillar as a punch bag. there just might be a reason for that... use a heavy bag sure, but dont spend your time punching stone.
bone is not harder than granite. not now, not at any time in the past. you will end up very badly messed up in later life if you go down that route.

we may be getting weaker, that i can believe. society changes. once winning a fight hand to hand meant something. now however tough you are, if someone empties a sun-machine gun into your chest you arent gonna be fighting anymore

[Kenpodog]

just my opinion, but wouldn't it be better to hit something hard with something soft and something soft with something hard?

I agree 100%

[shaolin-warrior]

.................

[Oraenor]

That is so dangerous. Surely that will do the absoloute oposite to conditioning. It'll give you loads of problems later on in life. If i were you i would make sure that your not doing yourself more harm than good.

Actually punching hard objects like walls will offer you conditioning in the beginning but in the long term ie even a year later, will seriously ruin your joints and your brain. Arthritis is the major concern, next with bone spurs growing in strange directions and brain damage can be linked with conditioning on hard objects.
I agree that conditioning on hard surfaces is dangerous and even the body tries to tell you that by the pain.
The theory why hard objects are bad for conditioning I believe is that hard surfaces are much more elastic than soft surfaces.by punching a brick wall for example, if you dont hit and break the wall, the wall will repel and throw that energy back into you and thus its basically throwing that punch into you.This can be proven when you punch a wall, you are pushed back when it is done hard enough.
Massive physical damage is caused to the area of impact as you would expect, then that energy travels straight through the arm, body and all the way to the otherside.Nerve damage near the knuckle suffers severe shock and this signal is sent to the brain and because nerves send information eletrically (just a theory), this in essence is like giving your brain an electric shock, so you can guess what happens after that after doing it hundreds of times at training.

[Oraenor]

personally i believe martial artists and fighters in general are getting weaker as the years go by, yeah we may look better on the outside now days, but compared to the old traditional ways that seem to be dying out, in my opinion we are slacking, the old ways should not be left to die out, modern fighters may look tough but there conditioning is weak, the more we rely on equipment to train with and padding to protect us, we are losing touch with real training methods,

wich are you? traditional or modern? or a mix of the both? i prefer to train using my body and things around me but never rely on other things to help me train, i dont use gloves or padding or soft punchbags, my punchbag is filled with stones and rocks,

stop punching soft padding people, atleast hit a big old tree, or something harder than your fist, not that inferior modern shit, no dissrespect to modern trainers, i cross train with modern techniques, but i dont lose touch with the old traditional training methods, once we had real fighting warriors now all that seems to be left as a whole is a bunch of steroid taking guys who think there macho because they knocked a few people out in UFC or "the ring".

what are other peoples opinions about traditional training VS modern training.
keep it friendly please we havent got a mat to fight on here so lets not fight atall, (calm and productive) not (aggressive and enraged) keep a level head if you cant keep a level head while talking about fighting, how can you expect to keep a level head whilst actually fighting someone?.

do not run into battle before you have learned to walk away from it.

IMHO, traditional ways work and possibly better, why?:

*Humans havent mutated with an extra leg or arm over the 2 milleniums that we have been here, we have been the same ever since(2 arms, 2 legs, a body and a head) so if it worked 300 yrs ago, it should work now, whether the teacher can teach it is another question.
* Society is actually getting more civillised and passive rather than aggressive and violent where as in the past it was about feudal lords and villages fending off barbarians so in one way of thinking, traditional way of fighting should be better than modern styles.


People today try to change the arts which have worked in the savage barbaric days to work for them rather than to change themselves in their physical activity and eating habits.To me its alot easier to change one's self than to change a complete system.I am not telling you to make yourself adapt to the rigid art but to change one's perspective that you cant blame the art on failing you.

I believe modern training has made it more efficient in training and somewhat adapt to todays 'laws' but ultimately we are humans and whether we trained in somthing that is 3000yrs old or 2hr old should make no difference if it is properly tested.

Finally this may offend people but look at the society that dominates the world and which laws have been made about hand combat. I think these rules favour the 'caucasian martial arts' too much in my opinion.

[gong fu]

first of all, this is why the old ways are dying, look at all of you saying dont hit rock and stone, will you say dont hit tree's or thrust your hands into metal and hard peas next? or tell me iron fist or iron sand palm or 2 finger zen is bad for you? this is why modern fighters are weak compared to the warriors of old, and the few remaining that still live that way of life,

who assumed i one day just started to hit rocks really hard?, and who thought to themselbes, wait did he start hitting things softly when he was an infant, then gradually hit harder things as his body adapted nice to the gradual proccess, now he can hit things that others think are to hard,

i am very carefull when it comes to training, dont assume i am wreckless, or a barbarian because i train to the bodies extream limits. and you dont.

[Jab902]

where do you train gong fu? I'm only half believing you because you talk about training like you train at the shaolin temple in china.

[Oraenor]

first of all, this is why the old ways are dying, look at all of you saying dont hit rock and stone, will you say dont hit tree's or thrust your hands into metal and hard peas next? or tell me iron fist or iron sand palm or 2 finger zen is bad for you? this is why modern fighters are weak compared to the warriors of old, and the few remaining that still live that way of life,

who assumed i one day just started to hit rocks really hard?, and who thought to themselbes, wait did he start hitting things softly when he was an infant, then gradually hit harder things as his body adapted nice to the gradual proccess, now he can hit things that others think are to hard,

i am very carefull when it comes to training, dont assume i am wreckless, or a barbarian because i train to the bodies extream limits. and you dont.

You place a much higher emphasis on conditioning and building this high tolerance in pain yet you dont realise the truth of real martial arts is in the sparing and learning to understand you and your opponent in combat. Who cares about your iron whatever when the opponent can just use you as a punching dummy. Even today the use of speed, experience/tactics and power far outweigh toughness and strength, thus this is why a fighter jet will always beat a tank up.

As for conditioning through experiences of the older masters we allow for tit sar jerng(iron palm) sarm sing(3 star conditioning) and incorporating some muay thai conditioning.We DO NOT punch trees or hard objects that do not dissipate the energy we put in. Training on ojects that do not dissipate energy is like shining a light at a mirror and seeing if it hurts your eyes, thus saying that you build up power on hard objects is like turining up the brightness of the bulb gradually, thus makes no sense and damages your retina.With this analogy now you see why it is more important to shine a torch into the dark than into a mirror!
This does not mean that we dont train or condition any harder than you do, just more logical.

Warriors of today are too restrictive with the laws that bind them, thus most teachers are unable to test or teach their students more effective techniques as they fear that there is a risk of seriously maiming or killing another human being. Warriors of the old have none of these rules, thus the dirtier, the better!

[shaolin-warrior]

[
Warriors of today are too restrictive with the laws that bind them, thus most teachers are unable to test or teach their students more effective techniques as they fear that there is a risk of seriously maiming or killing another human being. Warriors of the old have none of these rules, thus the dirtier, the better![/QUOTE]

You are right, finding a dojo that teaches you how to make an attacker a victim is hard. We gouge eyes, strike or grab to the groin. grab an attacker by the ear and rip it from their skull and see how fast they retreat. My instructors philosophy on agression is based on threat asessment and meeting force with force. i should add that along with violence, first we learned de-escalation techniques. If you can walk away, walk. but if you have to stand and fight, than do what you gotta do. " healing sucks" it's you or them, no such thing as a dirty fight.

[Oraenor]

no such thing as a dirty fight.

yes there is, it includes mud or jelly with chicks in bikinis

[BoarSpear]

Conditioning of the hands and feet is a central part of the Martial arts, if you neglect learning to condition your weapon (your body) you will damage yourself on your opponent in a fight. There are specific ways to strike the different media to make sure the impact goes into the target, and doesnt bounce back up your arm. you MUST have proper instruction in order to safely train iron palm etc.

Usually cotton, mung beans, rice, sand and wood chips precede rocks...wood chips will build the springyness necessary to safely strike the rocks. And dit da jow must always be applied before, during and after the strikes. you must also use Iron palm meditations to bring healing blood and chi to the area after training.

and BTW cole slaw wrasslin is better than mud wrestlin

[gong fu]

yes exactly boarspear, those who do not contition there body will damage thereself in a fight, and oreanor hmm i dont agree with what you say, if a non conditioned fighter is trding blows with a all round body conditioned fighter, the one who hasnt conditioned will be crushed simple as that, his bones muscle density and general toughness will crumble to the conditioned mans blows or grappling, what is going to win if you smack them together, a steel pole, or a wooden stick of same size? that is what the comparrison is with non conditioned and fully conditioned fighters. use common sense, if you hit hard against soft, the soft gives way.


oh and i dont think 95% of these people know what dit da jow is boarspear, what ingredients do you use in yours? i use basic recipie with alcohole, calendula, club moss, stinging nettle, wintergreen oil, but with the iron palm extra ingredients, you know horsetail, mallow walnut, yellow nettle, fenugreek, cow parsnip. few other ingredients aswell, purely home made but i cannot use mine yet this new batch is ageing still underground burried. i stopped using it for about 6 months now im using it again i dont want to damage my hands, i used tiger balm for awhile before when i was young before i could make my own and gather ingredience, i use a few secret herbs for training aswell, you have any methods or better ingredience to share with me?.