Karate or Wing Chun? My conundrum.

[Tee Sok]

Here we go again. Another mythical load of tripe. What is it with you people? Show us all the WC fighter who has won anything!

Firstly, who is this boxer? Is he related to m calingo's knife attacker? The one who attacked in the classic overhand manner..... you know the one. It's tha attack that everyone does in the dojo, but nobody does in the street.....

Secondly, Bruce Lee. Isn't he the guy who left most of WC behind and got into boxing, Thai Boxing as well as a host of other arts instead? Seems lie he didn't think too much of WC as a complete fighting system after all.

Thirdly..... do any of you actually have any real evidence?

I have to agree with Thai on this one. Statistically, the most common knife attack is the direct strike to the abdomen, certainly not the 'classic overhand' which you see in dojos or in demos only.
And I cannot believe that somebody could defeat a knife attacker like that with all the adrenaline and unpredictability of a street fight.
I trained in Wing Chun for some years and it has a few good techniques and theories, but it has limits-just like other martial arts-hence the importance of cross-training. Bruce Lee is the best example.

Have a look at Paul Vunak's tapes on knife fighting or in news that report knife attacks, you will see that what you said happens only in the movies.

[m_calingo]

Here we go again. Another mythical load of tripe. What is it with you people? Show us all the WC fighter who has won anything!

..... do any of you actually have any real evidence?

When I mentioned my friend actually survived a knife attack, would it have been more believable if I said he used BJJ? Or Krav Maga? Or Kali?

I wasn't there when the incident went down, and no, this wasn't one of those "Fight Club" numbers where wannabee tough guys bash each other on video.

What I find more interesting is your knee-jerk reaction whenever anyone mentions a martial art you don't have a high opinion of, WC being one. Wing Chun has been around for a few centuries. If this martial art was so...inept, isn't it likely that all its practitioners would have died in combat along the way, preventing the art from continuing on to the present day?

Besides that, by your tone you are essentially saying that Wing Chun never did work, never would work, and never will work, ever. And, therefore, if anyone, such as myself states it did happen in one incident, that automatically tags me a liar.

Bri, I never said a flying saucer landed on the White House lawn, or that monkeys flew out your butt (even though, in your case, that might actually happen).

As the Bard once said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Yes, WC does work if you learn how to make it work. When people like you, Bri, say it doesn't, it only means that you haven't taken the time to figure it out. Live with it, and get over it.

[Mephariel]

Here we go again. Another mythical load of tripe. What is it with you people? Show us all the WC fighter who has won anything!

Firstly, who is this boxer? Is he related to m calingo's knife attacker? The one who attacked in the classic overhand manner..... you know the one. It's tha attack that everyone does in the dojo, but nobody does in the street.....

Secondly, Bruce Lee. Isn't he the guy who left most of WC behind and got into boxing, Thai Boxing as well as a host of other arts instead? Seems lie he didn't think too much of WC as a complete fighting system after all.

Thirdly..... do any of you actually have any real evidence?

LOL, this is coming from a guy that knows NOTHING about Bruce Lee. First of all, I suggest you read some of his books before talking. The fight that I was talking about is in both of these books:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932835008/104-7104498-6312768?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883319250/sr=1-7/qid=1150923887/ref=sr_1_7/104-7104498-6312768?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books

Second of all, Bruce Lee did not leave Wing Chun behind. Bruce Lee incorporate other styles to add on to Wing Chun. Where the heck did you get your information from? Hell, even in his last complete film Enter the Dragon, he is still showing off Wing Chun. And lastly, the fight that I was talking about, Bruce Lee challenged the guy right when he came to America from Hong Kong. He didn't incoperate any other styles yet.

[Sagacious Lu]

LMFAO... Thai Bri vs. WC Round # 3,146



*Munches popcorn*

[Thai Bri]

m calingo, the old "I have a friend who did a, b or c" argument is rarely, if ever, believable. Even you weren't there. It is as believeable as those saucers on the lawn.

All this "it has been around for centuries so must be effective" is also very flawed logic. Which battles has it beeen in? How many of it's practitioners have even been in a fight? People have claimed that they can knock people out without touching them. These arts are still there, and will still be there in centuries to come. Does that make it true?

I am sure that there are people who can make WC "work". Just like there are people who can walk on their hands! But it is still far far better to walk on your feet.


Mepharial, thanks for the tip re reading. Actually I have read many of his books. The books you have linked too are not his by the way. They are by others. Bruce Lee is full of legend, even during his lifetime he was. Of course he was a great martial artists.... but let's not get carried away. And he did indeed leave Wing Chun behind. It is well documented that his big fight didn't go the way he wanted anyway. He didn't even think he needed anaerobic conditioning before that fight.... some use the WC training! How poor is that?

Drunks and bullies fight (and win) every day. That doesn't prove that Wing Chun "works."

Come on guys. The most realistic sporting arena (and I do realise that it is only a sport) is the MMA game. Point to a fight where Chis Sao has played a part...... or WC style chain punching...... or anything WC style. Let's see some evidence, instead of fifth hand accounts of things that never happened.

[Mephariel]

m calingo, the old "I have a friend who did a, b or c" argument is rarely, if ever, believable. Even you weren't there. It is as believeable as those saucers on the lawn.

All this "it has been around for centuries so must be effective" is also very flawed logic. Which battles has it beeen in? How many of it's practitioners have even been in a fight? People have claimed that they can knock people out without touching them. These arts are still there, and will still be there in centuries to come. Does that make it true?

I am sure that there are people who can make WC "work". Just like there are people who can walk on their hands! But it is still far far better to walk on your feet.


Mepharial, thanks for the tip re reading. Actually I have read many of his books. The books you have linked too are not his by the way. They are by others. Bruce Lee is full of legend, even during his lifetime he was. Of course he was a great martial artists.... but let's not get carried away. And he did indeed leave Wing Chun behind. It is well documented that his big fight didn't go the way he wanted anyway. He didn't even think he needed anaerobic conditioning before that fight.... some use the WC training! How poor is that?

Drunks and bullies fight (and win) every day. That doesn't prove that Wing Chun "works."

Come on guys. The most realistic sporting arena (and I do realise that it is only a sport) is the MMA game. Point to a fight where Chis Sao has played a part...... or WC style chain punching...... or anything WC style. Let's see some evidence, instead of fifth hand accounts of things that never happened.

What Bruce Lee fight are you talking about that is well documented and he left Wing Chun behind?

First of all, Chi Sao is not use for fighting, but rather a training method to develop sensitivity of your opponent and develop reaction. Have you seen Wing Chun fighters in the ring? They don't use Chi Sao, lol. How do you use Chi Sao in a real fight anyway? "Excuse me sir, can you step in so we can use Chi Sao." LOL. Second of all, while I have high respect for any MMA fighters, your idea that MMA represent effectiveness is flawed because in real life 99% of the people you meet or will attack you doesn't even know MMA. MMA pits some of the toughest fighters in terms of conditioning in the world art against art. How does MMA represent effectiveness in self-defense when most self-defense situations doesn't involve a MMA fighter? All MMA arts can be use for self-defense, but that doesn't mean that any art not use in MMA cannot. If you go out in the streets and you defend yourself against a bully or mugger, then Wing Chun works. If you go into a ring and you beat a fighter, then Wing Chun works. Just because because it is not a fight in the MMA format doesn't mean it doesn't count.

[Tom Yum]

m calingo, the old "I have a friend who did a, b or c" .

Just because b doesn't know about c doesn't make it right for your friend....

I am sure that there are people who can make WC "work". Just like there are people who can walk on their hands! But it is still far far better to walk on your feet..

Suppose they have no legs??

[m_calingo]

Earlier in this thread, I merely recounted a story that a friend of mine told me. As far as I'm concerned, it did happen, and I'm glad my friend came out of it alive. Believe it or don't believe it, it's no skin off my nose.

As I also stated earlier, I haven't formally studied WC, even though I have studied JKD. Although they are different, there are certain conceptual similarities in the form. One is the concept of the simultaneous attack and counter. Another is using the closest weapon (fist or foot) to attack the closest target. That anyone would even question the value of such concepts strikes me as completely and totally absurd, but I guess it takes all kinds...

Oh, I forgot--it's because TB says it doesn't work.

There is a flaw in the idea of using the UFC as the ultimate laboratory for the value of martial arts. The popular thinking is that since Royce Gracie defeated wrestlers, kempo artists, sumo wrestlers and so on during his prime then BJJ, and only BJJ will protect one on the street.

I am not discounting the value of BJJ. Far from it. In fact, I'm glad the Gracie family has opened our collective eyes to the value of traditional Judo mat work. As far as I'm concerned, it's another range of fighting a martial artist needs to be familiar with (such as kicking, punching, and trapping ranges) in order well rounded in the arts.

The flaw in that thinking is typical mugger on the street doesn't go to the gym and study BJJ anymore than they study wrestling or Muay Thai, kali, or silat. The mugger might be armed with a gun, in which case either Royce Gracie or Bruce Lee would be at a severe disadvantage. The mugger might be armed with a knife, in which case, it's toss up, depending on the skill of the knifer vs. the skill of the defender. Then there is the scenario where there are multiple BG's where a BJJ artist who pulls guard on one bad guy will have a swarm of other bad guys jumping on top of him in second.

Switching gears, let me pose a question. It's a given that Helio Gracie, the grandfather of GJJ was defeated by a Japnese judoka named Kimura who broke Helio's arm with a technique now called, the "kimura." The Japanese did and do have some chops in the Judo ground game (after all, it was brought to Brazil thanks to Mitsuyo Maeda). More recently, Sakuraba ended up defeating Royce Gracie in a grueling match by breaking his leg. To say the Japanese don't have a clue about jiu-jitsu would be a seriously misleading statement.

So my question is: If the jiu-jitsu ground game is the "ultimate" fighting art, why was it not used more commonly by the Japanese Samurai and foot soldiers during their feudal era when hand to hand combat was the norm and not the exception??

Food for thought, hmmmm? Just imagine waves upon waves of foot soldiers meeting in the middle of the battlefield, dropping their bladed weapons and then pulling guard with other soldiers.

Yeah, right.

[Thai Bri]

Who says that the Jiu Jitsu ground game is the ultimate anything? Your arguing points that I have not made. Who says that MMA is the ultimate test of what will work on the street? I haven't, though I did point to the MMA phenomenon as providing WC with an opportunity to prove its worth in practice, rather than theory. Again, you're resorting to points that I have not made, a surely desperate way to try and win an argument.

I know Chi Sao isn't about fighting, and it is about "developing sensitivity"..... but where is the evidence that is has developed anything actually useable in a real fight at all? Or even in a sporting fight? Look around in the JKD world. There are more and more JKD guys who no longer bother with this kind of training.

Anyone with any sense can figure out that being sensitive to your opponents movements is a good thing....... but not at this false range where the torsos are kept vertical and at a set distance apart - both done with the unconcious cooperation of the training partner. It's just so unreal it is useless. Yeah, but it's just a drill right? Yep, a useless one.

Grappling styles, whether fighting stand up or on the ground, also deelop this sensitivity. So does Thai Boxing. But the difference is this - they develop it in a way that is actually applicable to a real go. They don't need to say "you'll never see this sensitivity training in a real fight because it is just a drill". They develop it and use it.

Let's remember that Masterful fight between two supreme Wing Chun artists a few years ago. In the blue corner we had acknowledged Master of Almightiness William Cheung. In the red corner we had young, up and coming Emin Boztepe.....

The scene was set. One threw out challenges all day long..... the other rose to accept the challenge. The fight began. What great WC techniques did we see that blew us away? What incredibly quick chain punching? What amazing simultaneous block and counters did they use to tear each other apart with?

Well, none. They rolled around like a couple of little girls, and then both got up unhurt. Great stuff.

Maybe Wing Chun only works when it isn't on film? Or will the deadly Masters purposefully hide their secrets from the world?

[white devil]

wc vs karate

It's really hard to admit since thai bri could be a real pain in the ass sometimes..but i have to say i finaly agree with everything he is saying on this one.

Wing Chun just isn't effective,period.It's not the end of the world,you can still keep it up and back it up with unrealistic and impresive stories but that won't change the fact that it is just not effective.Why would anyone bother or take pleasure in putting down WC if it really worked in real life situations?

Unless youre a hard core bruce lee/jet li or jackie chan fan and you think all the fancy tricks you see them doing in their movies actually work..that knocking down a man by doing a front flip(like you might have seen in ong bak)..if you think that Pai Mei in Kill Bill 2 is actually a real ''kung fu'' master and youd really want him to train you...well youve just gotta wake up.

Okay im even sure if you take a bouncer who is used to brawling and fighting in bars..that has no martial art background whatsoever..and tell him to look at wing chun demonstrations..he just wont be impressed.Face it guys thoses guys dont even touch each other in training,and therefore that creates a false sense of distance and an illusion of actual fighting......

Thoses of you who want to join any martial art..keeping posting THIS VS THAT THREADS are just looking for a secret magical technique that works against type of opponent (which is by the way the illusion that wing chun gives at first sight)..there is no ancient secret magical chinese technique that you can learn and change your life with....the only secret magical thing is TRAINING...AND WORKING YOUR ASS OFF..BE REALISTIC AND STOP COUNTING ON WHAT YOU MAY SEE IN DRAGON BALL Z...EVEN IF YOU CONCENTRATE REAL HARD YOU CANT THROW FIREBALLS.(trust me..ive tried)


now stop browsing the web for secret techniques you can use against the guy who just beat your ass real bad...get of your lazy ass and get training..it will take tremendous time..but eventually you will get stronger...if you try hard enough...

oh and if youre wondering which one you should take...karate or wing chun..(for self defense purposes)id say neither man..start by getting in shape(if you arent already)..by running and hitting the weights..push ups/set ups and work on your flexibility..than take a martial art that is worth training in...you'll have to figure that shit out on your own though..go out and try everything around you and see for yourself what works best...

now all this is coming from someone who actually trained wing chun principles through jkd and who was used to defend it on this forum against the same guy that is actually trying to open your eyes right now --------»Thai Bri (man i hate that guy)

[Thai Bri]

See? The guy who trained Wing Chun "principles" in JKD knows more than the guy who trained Wing Chun, Karate, JKD, Jiu Jitsu, Grappling, WW2 Combatives etc. and has 20 years policing experience?

That is amazing.

[white devil]

So my question is: If the jiu-jitsu ground game is the "ultimate" fighting art, why was it not used more commonly by the Japanese Samurai and foot soldiers during their feudal era when hand to hand combat was the norm and not the exception??

Food for thought, hmmmm? Just imagine waves upon waves of foot soldiers meeting in the middle of the battlefield, dropping their bladed weapons and then pulling guard with other soldiers.

look man theres no such thing as the ultimate art...although theres such a thing as an effective art who's chances of fitting you personnaly are higher than another...do you see my point?
Some arts fit almost everyone...muay thai,boxing and jiu jitsu are examples..because they concentrate heavily on concrete fighting...theres also jkd that i dont need to mention of course...they are the result of realistic training and they evolve from there...

Now you take karate ..which is telegraphic and follows an unbroken rythm..myself not being a karateka i can tell you by looking at a guy doing his kata about 10 ways of knocking him down..(im not saying i could..just saying how i would)

Food for thought, hmmmm? Just imagine waves upon waves of foot soldiers meeting in the middle of the battlefield, dropping their bladed weapons and then pulling guard with other soldiers

ok look man that just doesnt make any sense...youre comparing a modern lifestyle with the feudal age?Stop living in the past and just wake up man.


now i know you are just standing there infront of your computer trying to figure out how you can answer to all of this..how you can prove that what you study is not useless and actually works on some people..or you are probably looking for flaws in my arguments so you can probably feed off them...Ive been there man..funny thing it was not even 6 months ago(just browse the old threads)

Again.We have no reason of putting down your style or system..we are showing you reality and of course,I,personaly have tons of references and sources,including personal experiences,to back up my arguments and i will be glad to show them to you.

It's not the end of the world and you are free to throw away your time and money..just don't say nobody warned you..

[Thai Bri]

Just because b doesn't know about c doesn't make it right for your friend....




Suppose they have no legs??

To be honest these really are real issues. There is a secret way to pull guard if you have no legs. It involves ancient yogic breathing methods and the ability to violently suck air up your arse hole, then sticking your anus on his belly button.

[m_calingo]

look man theres no such thing as the ultimate art...although theres such a thing as an effective art who's chances of fitting you personnaly are higher than another...do you see my point?
Some arts fit almost everyone...muay thai,boxing and jiu jitsu are examples..because they concentrate heavily on concrete fighting...theres also jkd that i dont need to mention of course...they are the result of realistic training and they evolve from there...

Now you take karate ..which is telegraphic and follows an unbroken rythm..myself not being a karateka i can tell you by looking at a guy doing his kata about 10 ways of knocking him down..(im not saying i could..just saying how i would)



ok look man that just doesnt make any sense...youre comparing a modern lifestyle with the feudal age?Stop living in the past and just wake up man.


now i know you are just standing there infront of your computer trying to figure out how you can answer to all of this..how you can prove that what you study is not useless and actually works on some people..or you are probably looking for flaws in my arguments so you can probably feed off them...Ive been there man..funny thing it was not even 6 months ago(just browse the old threads)

Again.We have no reason of putting down your style or system..we are showing you reality and of course,I,personaly have tons of references and sources,including personal experiences,to back up my arguments and i will be glad to show them to you.

It's not the end of the world and you are free to throw away your time and money..just don't say nobody warned you..

Listen, my background is JKD and Kali. There are certain aspects of JKD that are founded on certain principles of WC. I am not arguing that WC is the ultimate art. What I am saying is there are parts of it that do work, and can work, and has worked.

The gung fu Bruce Lee taught in Seattle, WA was not the same that he taught in San Francisco, and that changed even more when he moved to LA.

During that period, the stances changed, the ranges changed, a lot changed. In the later years, Lee actually placed less emphasis on trapping and chi sao. However, he did not drop these completely. Some things he didn't change. The principle of the simultaneous parry and counter is a cornerstone of JKD, whether it is done with a parry with one arm and a counter with the other, or done with the same arm.

You can say what you will, but are you saying that concept either won't work, or has no merit? There is no reason this concept cannot be transposed to other systems, even western boxing for example, however some people like TB is so stuck on his WC won't work dogma, that he can't see the forest for the trees.

Straight punches travel directly to the target. This makes the attack: a) simple b) direct and c) to the point. No fancy stuff. I'm not talking about all the Jet Li wire work here, just plain, simple techniques. Nothing complicated at all.

It's when all the fancy mess is added that stuff doesn't work.

BTW, the Boztepe vs. Cheung match was amusing, even more than the Rocye Gracie/Ken Shamrock rematch.

[Thai Bri]

Dogma or experience?

Of course straight punches are simple..... but WC only has a monopoly on the weak ones.