To people who think kung fu/chinese martial arts are useless...

[Sly Dog]

Style or no style, sparing or no sparing. If you want to "pressure test" your abilities, add adrenaline, blood, and a sense of certain death - outside of a competition setting, of course. Whoever walks away with the fewest stitches, and most blood wins!

[sifuabel]

I don't know where you get the idea that most CMAs don't spar. Every CMA situation that I have been involved with has sparred and hard!

Don't mind him, its just typical bullshido indoctrination. According to some there, every CMA school is a form only wushu school.

[ebozzz]

Don't mind him, its just typical bullshido indoctrination. According to some there, every CMA school is a form only wushu school.

I hear ya! There are lots of schools of various disciplines. There is no reason to throw a blanket over any of the specific ones assuming that they have no martial skills. I have been in some Wushu schools that sparred frequently.

I know nothing about the person that posted the statement that I replied to. He/she could be a a scrub or very highly skilled. You can bet that if I ever had to cross hands with them that I would assume that I am dealing with a person that I need to bring my "A" game for unless it is proven otherwise....

[WildWest.]

You should always bring your 'A' game.

[sifuabel]

True, you should never play anyone for a sucker.

The thing with some of the people outside CMA is that they only see the very fringe of it. Whats on video or TV. The idolize what they do so they can't grasp anything else. "there's only one way to punch, one way to kick, one way to this , one way to that." Mostly, because thats what they see on MMA night on TV. Its endless. Some of these young Bobs have been watching UFC since they were 5. So the indoctrination is a generation in the making.

[ebozzz]

You should always bring your 'A' game.

Very true but that is not what that person is doing by assuming that all CMAs do not spar and therefore are useless. He/she could be in for a rude awakening....

[CLFFU]

What's dangerous? What's useless?

In response to the statement made about it being dangerous for someone to train in traditional martial arts and feel they could defend themselves because they're supposedly ineffective, I feel I have to ask a couple questions:

1) Isn't it more dangerous for someone skilled in "grappling" (which originated with traditional styles, by the way) or an MMA fighter to assume they can take someone else with no effort? Why can they do this? Is it because of the immense money-making and promotional machine that tells them so? I have a feeling that if any traditional MA such as Tang Soo Do, for example, became very popular in Denmark by making some modifications, this promotional machine would be proclaiming Danish TSD as the ultimate, unbeatable fighting style. Much of the groundfighting touted as being superior to any striking style has it's roots in Shui Chaio (which is Chinese) or jiu-jitsu (which is Japanese by way of China.) This is mostly common knowledge, but I wanted to clarify for the sake of those that seem to believe grappling arts originated in Brazil shortly before the advent of the UFC. NO ONE is invincible, regardless of their training methods or philosophy. I have nothing against MMA, and I have friends who train and compete, but it is a sport. The fighters are tough, train hard, and are great at what they do, but their lives are not on the line with the "real" fighting of MMA any more so than a boxer's is in his sport. Traditional Chinese kung fu, on the other hand, originated partly from a necessity to fight for one's life, not trophies or rankings. My point here is that it is just as foolish (and potentially dangerous) for someone to think they're untouchable because they can apply an arm bar on the ground as it is for someone to believe they are unbeatable because they've watched too many Bruce Lee movies.

2) Why do some say Chinese arts are useless? Is it because they usually don't openly compete in MMA-style competitions? Or, is it because the powers-that-be say they're not useful in order to make more money? Is it the degeneration of traditional CMA that has taken place over the last fifty years or so? I think it's all of the above. The bottom line is, real kung fu encompasses many different aspects of life, and fighting is to be found in ALL styles. Some place more of an emphasis on fighting than others, but it is there in all of them. Furthermore, a great many of the techniques and drills trained at real kung fu schools are illegal and off limits in MMA competition. How real is a fight in which someone is not allowed to throw a fu jow to the face and take an eye, or a charp choi to the throat? Our school is Choy Lay Fut, and real fighting and applications are most CERTAINLY a top priority there. If they weren't, my sifu would be doing a great disservice to himself and his students. There is much said about honor in the scope of traditional martial arts, and being honest (sometimes brutally so) is a big part of that. CLF has been involved with and kept alive by Triad and other underground groups since its very beginning, and its history shows and will continue to show that it's VERY good at REAL fighting. Oh, and we do pretty well on the tournament circuit where we're able to get trophies and rankings too.

[Wi Kali Group]

First off I think the theory that its the person behind the system that's more important than the system. It's just common sense.

If you take a Navy Seal, Israeli Commando or any other tough hard ass that can survive the PT training they go through. And say teach them how to hit some one with say a rubber cock. Then take the average gym wienie you meet at any TMA or MMA or boxing ect. And teach them decent knife fighting. If you train both for say 3 to 6 months more often than not I think the commando is going to beat or screw the wiene to death with the rubber cock (don't ask don't tell).

Now it all comes down to degree's if you have guys that may be different attribute levels but are close it won't make much diff. The more the diff in attributes the more the person is more important than the man.

On styles. Some styles work better than other for people for various reasons. Flexibility, strength body type mind set. And it depends more on the way the material is taught than the material it self. BJJ is the same moves as Jap Jits. They teach it different. That is what makes if so much more effective. But you still have top notch Jits coming out of Japan. Also we all know BJJ schools are not all created equal.

On grappling their is no doubt that MMA for good or ill drastically changed how the ground game is viewed.

For good it clearly showed the importance for self defense or MMA to work on a ground game and to defend the take down. In the case of GSP it shows that fear of his takedown has caused many better strikers to get beat (thiago comes to mind). They can't open up on him cause they end up on their ass.

For bad in the case of self defense it elevated grappling to an unrealistic place in your self defense. Most people you see in MMA (their is only one GSP and only a few close to his level) that are good grapplers and piss poor strikers take a beating trying to get into range. Most people paying money to defend themselves (not compete in a sport) would rather train something that doesn't require them to take that much of a beating. They could take that kind of a beating without training.

Look at some of these Brazilian Jits guys when some of them first hit the sport. They walk out like zombies with their arms straight out (their was a gracie in Japan this summer just like this) taking a beating until they can get it on the ground.

Lastly I thought grappling started out in Greece as foreplay for all the sodomy. (I'm kidding so put down your crayons.)

[CLFFU]

Agreed. The individual is what's ultimately most important, and different styles are better suited for different individuals, based on that particular person's body type, natural ability, temperament, mindset, etc. But the way that one is trained is also of paramount importance, and this is the responsibility of one's instructor. I remember reading once that Sifu Dave Lacey said something in reference to one's sifu needing to be a bit aggressive and mean for the student to be a really good fighter, and that he is thankful to have had such a sifu. The mentality, philosophy, and attitude of the sifu transfers to the student or disciple along with the forms, techniques and other physical aspects of their style. We have seen that a lack of clarity and cohesion in training has caused a lot of confusion and controversy within Choy Lay Fut alone: some people saying it's not good at all for fighting, others saying that you NEVER want to cross a good CLF fighter; some people lamenting the sad fact that they received no real benefit after training in CLF for two years, while a student at our school was able to quickly end a violent confrontation after approximately two weeks of training (gwa choi, then pow choi right under the chin), etc. All this, combined with the dreaded "Tai Chi Choy Lay Fut" that has become so prevalent makes it very difficult for someone who is inexperienced, but really wants to learn to find a good school for themselves. And this is just ONE of however many Chinese styles in existence.

Maybe we as Chinese martial artists need to work at clearing up and cleaning up some of the misconceptions and inconsistencies within our own community, thereby making it easier for those on the outside to get a better view of what we're really all about. Hopefully, then the traditional Chinese arts will be restored to what they were once known for, and the non-believers will soon change their outlook on what we do.

[jubaji]

BJJ is the same moves as Jap Jits. They teach it different.

Try to find the energy to type 'Japanese' instead of inadvertently using an ethnic slur. Thanks.

[kingoftheforest]

Try to find the energy to type 'Japanese' instead of inadvertently using an ethnic slur. Thanks.

Yes but remember calling people homosexual in a derogatory way is not a bash on gays.

Cause jubaji would never do that.






Tokyo Kid should be right behind this post I'm sure.

[Wi Kali Group]

Yes but remember calling people homosexual in a derogatory way is not a bash on gays.

Cause jubaji would never do that.

Tokyo Kid should be right behind this post I'm sure.

ROFLMFAO remind me to never invite him to a game of axis and allies. If he was offended by that he'd never survive.

[kingoftheforest]

ROFLMFAO remind me to never invite him to a game of axis and allies. If he was offended by that he'd never survive.

He gets his panties in a wad if anyone says anything even remotely bad about the japanese.

I will agree that "jap" is a derogatory term, but you just seemed to be using it as an abbreviation.

However the injured party will regularly make fun of people by referring to them as homosexuals in a derogatory manner.


I believe the term is double standard.

[Ben Grimm]

Ok children, play nice or I'll have to send you to your rooms. Hahahaha

[Wi Kali Group]

I will agree that "jap" is a derogatory term, but you just seemed to be using it as an abbreviation.

However the injured party will regularly make fun of people by referring to them as homosexuals in a derogatory manner.


I believe the term is double standard.

Yes I was using is as an abbreviation. And I agree it would be derogatory if used on a person not a thing. The weird thing is I was trying to stick up for "Traditional Jits" Vs. BJJ. Some people are going to find something to whine about so I don't worry about being politically correct very much.