The Power of Ving Tsun

[EmptyneSs]

WC Biffo? That'd be this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegFuKZAyUc&mode=related&search=

Yep, padded up WC with contact without an emphasis on injury free (though they're not using bare knuckle like the Kyokushin boys - not that the Kyokushin fighters tend to use hand techniques to the head in most of the tournaments I've seen or been in), nothing new there. Obviously there is a perception that WC just hit the air and do dbl chi sau out there?

Most of the WC schools I know teach ground fighting, or the students cross train. Whoooppeee do da dee. Just like my BJJ pals god bless em' (that would be Brazilian Ju Jitsu not Butt Jabb Jitsu) tend to do a striking style to supplement their fighting.

Go easy on the generalising guys. Having said that Thai Bri does entertain me, I know you mean well TB

there is no doubt some tough fighters in that video. my question is what was this event? was it some kind of tournament or something? or is this how they normally train? cause if this is how they normally spar its really fcking irresponsible. allowing full contact, sharp downward elbow strikes to the opponents skull, neck, and spine is not only not needed but is xtremely dangerous. even ufc doesnt allow those kind of strikes that we saw multiple people recieving. and obviously this wasnt a real tournament, cause the ref was just chillen and not doing shit. in one part we even see the "ref" tell one of the fighters to elbow drop a downed fighter. what was this garbage?

you can push yourself to the breaking point in sparring while still being relatively safe with proper gear and certain precations. these guys were just brawling like savages. one guy even takes advantage of his opponents attempt to re enter the ring and knees him str8 in the face as the guys climbing in the ring. wtf ? my sparring buddies have enough control to continually push me without sending me to the hospital everytime we train, nor do the feel the need to ambush me with a knee strike when im trying to get into the ring.

this shit was more like one of those bad backyard wrestling videos.

[Maxx]

there is no doubt some tough fighters in that video. my question is what was this event? was it some kind of tournament or something? or is this how they normally train? cause if this is how they normally spar its really fcking irresponsible. allowing full contact, sharp downward elbow strikes to the opponents skull, neck, and spine is not only not needed but is xtremely dangerous. even ufc doesnt allow those kind of strikes that we saw multiple people recieving. and obviously this wasnt a real tournament, cause the ref was just chillen and not doing shit. in one part we even see the "ref" tell one of the fighters to elbow drop a downed fighter. what was this garbage?

you can push yourself to the breaking point in sparring while still being relatively safe with proper gear and certain precations. these guys were just brawling like savages. one guy even takes advantage of his opponents attempt to re enter the ring and knees him str8 in the face as the guys climbing in the ring. wtf ? my sparring buddies have enough control to continually push me without sending me to the hospital everytime we train, nor do the feel the need to ambush me with a knee strike when im trying to get into the ring.

this shit was more like one of those bad backyard wrestling videos.

You're right on the money with that one!!

In the mid 90's myself and a couple of my TKD students invested in acouple of the supersafe helmets that you can get from japan. They're the same ones that are used in Daido Juku touraments. Every once in a while we would put on those helmets and go at it full tilt. Some of those matches looked about like that VT clip. I distinctly remember getting so worked up that I dropped an elbow across the back of the neck of my sparring partner. It shuddered him but he was able to perform a judo throw and we both went down to the hard concrete floor. The inside of my partner's helmet was spattered in blood... probably from the jarring impact of the elbow.

I have to admit that I learned a lot about mind set doing those matches, but they were plain stupid... there was no ref, no limit on the types of techniques we could throw and neither of us was wearing much protective gear. A dangerous combination when you combine that with the heightened level of killer instinct you reach when the idea of the match is ALL OUT!!!

Tony Blauer used to do the same thing in his Panic Attack scenarios from the 80's. I rememeber listening to an audio tape he did several years ago where he kinda grew out of that phase and developed new equipment to make the practice safer.

[Balor]

TB - I see a lot of right crosses used in WC, aside from the prevalence of cross training, you have to train with right crosses in a style like WC in order to work against them, even if they're not in the trad syllabus (whatever that may be, if such a thing as a 'universal WC' exists). Same goes for grab and knees. I've found that both of those techs appear in my class when people lose their cool - nothing wrong with that. It's not as though the sifu floats over to the students and whispers, "That is not WC grasshoppa, please use chain punching instead." Kicking from the floor and ground and pound are big in my WC class and are taught in our sister school in HK: especially the ground and pound, WC after all is a striking style, so you don't wait for your opponent to get up before resuming fisticuffs .

EmptyneSs - I wonder what sort of health insurance if any that school has in place

You're right, you'd have to be pretty 'keen' to risk your life training like that on a regular basis. But there is the perception in some minds that 'hard core' training with plenty of brutality constitutes a demonstration of an effective martial art. It has its place, but of course there are limits.

[Maxx]

It does have it's place, I won't disagree with that. On occasion... maybe a couple of times a year, it might not be a bad idea to go for it like that, as long as there is responsible supervision. I can say from experience that the elbow drops across the back of the head is a universally bad idea with regards to training. It's just too damn dangerous. When the jarring from the impact to the back of the neck actually causes an explosive nose bleed, that's like a sign from God to not do that again.

[Thai Bri]

Balor. Wing Chun isn't "anything that people do when they fight for real." It is a style, contained within forms, and conforming to certain principles.

Now everyone here knows that I do not rate it. I'm all for WC guys trying out different things.

Just stop pretending that it is all part of Wing Chun after all!

[Hardball]

It's great for cross training. I wouldn't want it as my primary art. Bruce Lee, said it best--"Take what you can use and discard the rest"

[Balor]

TB - you make a very good point there. If you 'limit' WC to it's principle forms and the tech's contained in those forms then you will indeed dispense with some of the tech's we have discussed (including basic ground and pound). Having said that, I'd be surprised / appalled if there were WC schools out there who only trained within those parameters. All styles evolve surely, they have to. Where they lose their identity is a matter of opinion ie when do they all become Freestyle / MMA or JKD

[Thai Bri]

We'e going round in circles.

WC claims that it is the best this and the best that. Yet the only "evidence" we find of this is when WC is shown during an evolutionary stage...... like when it is evolving into MMA.

Perhaps it is the MMA that is the way to go. Perhaps they have already evolved, and your pals are busy re-inventing the wheel (whilst still calling it a blivet).

[elliotNess]

We'e going round in circles.

WC claims that it is the best this and the best that. Yet the only "evidence" we find of this is when WC is shown during an evolutionary stage...... like when it is evolving into MMA.

Perhaps it is the MMA that is the way to go. Perhaps they have already evolved, and your pals are busy re-inventing the wheel (whilst still calling it a blivet).

Sounds like you are describing Krav Magra

[Thai Bri]

I'm describing a host of "traditional" arts that, through popularity in the west, have degenerated into McDojos.

In that I'd put the majority of TKD, Karate, smome "Japanese" Jiu Jitsu and Kung Fu. No, they are not all like that. There are still true traditional practitioners that learn how to hit hard n nasty.... But way too many are waving their arms and legs about in thin air and expecting to win a fight with street hardened lunatics who beat the shit out of someone every few days.

Phew! That rant was fun!

[elliotNess]

I'm describing a host of "traditional" arts that, through popularity in the west, have degenerated into McDojos.

In that I'd put the majority of TKD, Karate, smome "Japanese" Jiu Jitsu and Kung Fu. No, they are not all like that. There are still true traditional practitioners that learn how to hit hard n nasty.... But way too many are waving their arms and legs about in thin air and expecting to win a fight with street hardened lunatics who beat the shit out of someone every few days.

Phew! That rant was fun!

You seem to have included every art except for the one you study. Which is?????

[Thai Bri]

I have studied many ats over the years. I'm kind of doing the Bruce Lee thing, absorb what is useful and all that. Been doing that since 1979.

Karate - Shukoka - learned to hit hard, but that was it.

Wing Chun - Some of the parries were interesting, but a very self indilgent and over rated theoretical art.

Japanese Jiu Jitsu - admittedly from a poor lineage (WJJF, proven fraudsters). Learned nothing of use.

Thai Boxing - Much better. Great strikes, great movement, great fitness.

Ground grappling - Also great, complementing my Thai very well.

WW2 Combatives - Some real nastiness in there. Oh yes!

Senshido - attended a couple of seminars and learned with friends from tapes. Some great stuff in there. Very situational oriented, unlike 99% of so called fighting arts out there.

C2 Core Combatives - I'm part way through the extensive instructor programme re this. A nasty, nasty thing to do to someone.

I have also been a front line police officer for 20 years. That real experience counts, dontcha think?

I don't know the motivation for your post. Maybe it is harmless, or maybe you are having a little dig? Who knows? But I like to say that I speak from experience when I make my judgements. Can your level of experience match mine?

[kiddbjj]

i thought i should chime in since i'm the one who posted the wc sparring clip.

for the most part i agree with what thai bri is saying, it does look like an un-evolved version of mma. HOWEVER i make one clear distinction & please hear me out - this is not a pro wc plug but rather an observation on the clip.

the most striking aspect of that clip to me was the ferocity of attack & the fact that those guys were basically operating at a "sprint" pace the entire time which resulted in VERY short fights, probably less than a minute in most cases, because one person gets overwhelmed by strikes and either gets taken down and pounded or gets knocked out/down and cant continue.

now contrast that to your average mma fight and i'm sure you can appreciate that there is a significant difference. many mma fights these days are far longer. THIS IS NOT a knock on mma at all, those guys are the real deal, however my point (that i'm very slowly getting to) is that there is a very real difference in pacing & the MENTAL APPROACH to the bout.

good mma guys are patient, pick their shots or shoots, and work towards their knockout or submission. THEY CAN DO THIS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE THE TIME TO WORK THEIR GAME within the time limit. in contrast, i know that the leung ting wing tsun people (those in the clip) approach their sparring as if it were a street altercation, they try to end it as quickly as possible. they don't feel the opponent out or pick their shots, they are taught that its preferable to advance with their footwork rather than retreat or evade, they are taught to strike CONTINUOUSLY combining punches elbows knees whatever but it must be CONTINUOUS. the approach is essentially 90% offensive and 10% incidental defence.

to make this distinction more clear i offer you an mma example of someone applying this strategy of continuous attack (and it is a STRATEGY rather than a matter of technique, it is a MIND SET). we have all seen the vitor belforts stunning victories over both tank abbot and vanderlay silva. HE APPLIED THIS VERY STRATEGY - and a million times better than the wc people in the clip i might add. he basically threw a CONTINUOUS flurry of punches to the head (i'm talking like 15 in a row!) PLUS he coupled this with fast advancing footwork driving right into the centre mass of the opponent. since he can run faster forwards than his opponents can run backwards they have no option but to cover leaving them open in other places for a further CONTINUOUS barrage of strikes.

this is a great example of applying an offensive strategy. it is extremely effective in overwhelming people and especially as a street approach in my opinion. it also has specific training methodologies to make it work. its basically a full body sprint, so you need to train your atp-pc & lactic acid energy system to be able to explode for up to 30-60 seconds. it is very different to sparring where you learn offense and defence in equal portions because with this STRATEGY there is barely any provision made for defence. it is a full body comitment to ATTACKING.

where is it weak. leg shoots may take you down if you begin from too far out. you might run out of steam before you put them away leaving you hopelessly fatigued for the rest of the fight (if they cover well enough to survive the initial barrage).

this STRATEGY is not unique to wc. it is also evident in seven star preying mantis kung fu, boxing (the boxing blast) and jeet kune do (the straight blast). paul vunak's Rapid Assault Tactics (RAT) system is based on this strategy. Bruce Lee was an advocate of the straight blast using more boxing style punches than the wc vertical chain punch.

so to end my rant please remember i have no agenda in saying this. to be honest i think that if mma matches were, for example, shortened to ONE 2 minute round, slightly longer than the length of time you would expect a street fight to be that you would see guys using this SPEED,POWER, OFFENSIVE strategy almost exclusively because their just wouldn't be time for anything else. much the same way that judo guys tend to be more attack oriented and explosive on the ground than BJJ people (who are usually very patient) because under judo comp rules you only have approx 30 seconds to make something happen on the ground.

so what does all this crap i wrote mean... i think that if you want to train purley for self defence then it would be to your benefit to apply this strategy in everything you do regarding the physical portion of your self defence. if you train more fot the enjoyment and challenge of learning your art then you can ignore it. there is after all much more to training than preparing for the 'street fight' that may never happen.

[Thai Bri]

Yep.

If you're training for self protection rather than sport I reckon it is best to purposefuly have short fights. Tell 'em they are only going for half a minute and watch the sparks fly. More realistic for the street.

[elliotNess]

I have studied many ats over the years. I'm kind of doing the Bruce Lee thing, absorb what is useful and all that. Been doing that since 1979.

Karate - Shukoka - learned to hit hard, but that was it.

Wing Chun - Some of the parries were interesting, but a very self indilgent and over rated theoretical art.

Japanese Jiu Jitsu - admittedly from a poor lineage (WJJF, proven fraudsters). Learned nothing of use.

Thai Boxing - Much better. Great strikes, great movement, great fitness.

Ground grappling - Also great, complementing my Thai very well.

WW2 Combatives - Some real nastiness in there. Oh yes!

Senshido - attended a couple of seminars and learned with friends from tapes. Some great stuff in there. Very situational oriented, unlike 99% of so called fighting arts out there.

C2 Core Combatives - I'm part way through the extensive instructor programme re this. A nasty, nasty thing to do to someone.

I have also been a front line police officer for 20 years. That real experience counts, dontcha think?

I don't know the motivation for your post. Maybe it is harmless, or maybe you are having a little dig? Who knows? But I like to say that I speak from experience when I make my judgements. Can your level of experience match mine?

All your cross training has left you totally confused. You are a jack of all trades and master of none. Being a front line cop for 20 years does not qualify you as an authority on combat, at best you are qualified in restraining and arresting. Not intended to flame throw just being objective since you have so much criticisim of Wing Chun.