Wing Tsun vs. Pin Sun Wing Chun

[Laura]

I'm curious - which style of Wing Chun do you find works more for today's street fighting - Turning Style or Leung Ting Wing Tsun?

P.S. Not trying to start a heated debate, just curious about everyone's opinion.

[Thai Bri]

Your question implies that any of them work.

[m_calingo]

Your question implies that any of them work.

Go on TB, why don't you repeat for the nth time why you don't think Wing Chun works. I'm sure we'd all love to hear about it.

[Thai Bri]

No. I'd prefer to hear tales of rooftop challenges and unconfirmable accounts from the street. As well as the usual excuses when the only clips ever avalable show WC getting battered.

[Mephariel]

Go on TB, why don't you repeat for the nth time why you don't think Wing Chun works. I'm sure we'd all love to hear about it.

Exactly. Thai Bri acts like he is the first and foremost expert in all lineage of Wing Chun.

[Laura]

Look guys, this isn't about bashing WC - it works. Those that have their head up in the ...(you know where) like to talk a lot of crap about things they don't know about. Let's just keep the thread open to friendly discussion and those that have nothing to contribute, move along please. I'm asking current students for their opinions. That's all.

[Thai Bri]

Tum te tum te tum.

[Laura]

I doubt you study Thai. Is there anyone else on the board that actively studies WC?

[Thai Bri]

If only you knew little fellah!

[Oraenor]

I'm curious - which style of Wing Chun do you find works more for today's street fighting - Turning Style or Leung Ting Wing Tsun?

P.S. Not trying to start a heated debate, just curious about everyone's opinion.

A smaller person will benift from turning moves to divert heavy strikes where as a larger person benifits from more direct assault. Watch the 'Prodigal Son' and you'll understand what I mean.

[tjwingchun]

I doubt you study Thai. Is there anyone else on the board that actively studies WC?

I have been studying Wing Chun since 1974 and professionally teaching Wing Chun since 1983.

As to your original question it is a little non-specific to be answered precisely, if you asked any of my students they will tell you what I think of Leung Ting, but I do respect some of the fighters from that lineage, especially from Keith Kerspetch as he is a fighter who happens to have learned from Leung Ting and developed his was of making it work.

The main thing to remember about real fighting is that it has more to do with the individual than the system, I know quite a few characters without formal training, just street experience, that would take out the majority of martial artists whatever their style.

Any street or even sports conflict is a percentage game, what Wing Chun brings to the equation are simple straightforward concepts and principles of dealing with violent confrontations.

The next big influence on its effectiveness is the Instructor and their methods of teaching.

I can only speak for 'MY' Wing Chun and how it has worked over the years for my students and myself when working as a Doorman, as Thai Bri rightly states these are unconfirmable, though apart from anecdotal there are records however held by the police if he wishes to access their files.

Too many talk about the size issue, and though it is correct what Oraenor says, in my view it clouds the situation, Wing Chun benefits anybody, any size, any age, either sex, as it is just the understanding of SELF related to real fighting.

There are similarities with Wing Chun throughout the fighting arts, one of my favourite books is by Jack Dempsey written in 1950 and how punching is described is almost pure Wing Chun.

[Thai Bri]

Really? I kno he strikes with a vertical fist... but where is the drop step in WC? And where is the chain punching in Dempsey's book?

That's not an accurate reflection of Dempsey's punching method at all.

[SwissPrecision]

Hi Thai ... long time no debate [i haven't read the forum for weeks]. First of all, it's not called 'drop step', the corect term is 'falling step'; it showes how much you know about Dempsey's book. And it is present in corect WC, please hear me out: The falling step is a way of translating your body mass (m) on the step + lead leg that coresponds to your punching motion. In WT it's the same concept, only you don't step with your mass on the lead leg, you slide-step with your mass. Example: In WT it is sayed your weight must be placeted on the rear leg (let's call it point B) and with your front leg (point A) must be free of mass. We will call your oponent's CoM on the ground point C, now the corect WT step must move your mass (back leg !) from point B to point C.
NB: I box now, so I admit that sometimes you need to place your mass on your front leg. In boxing sparing it's great bc you don't have to worry about low thai kicks or take-downs.
And were ever did you see chain punchung in a boxing mach, remember Jack's book is from a spor-boxing perspective. Cheers.

[Thai Bri]

Falling step? So what? It has been taken and used by the WW2 Combatives crowd, and they call it the drop step? What next? Picking up on someone mentioning a round kick instead of calling it a roundhouse?

I know the issues re the limitations of boxing, but was not aware that SOME people intepretation of WC is that they somehow use the falling step with the rear leg. Is that supposed to protect them from low kicks and take downs? I hope not because it wouldn't work.

[tjwingchun]

Hi Thai ... long time no debate [i haven't read the forum for weeks]. First of all, it's not called 'drop step', the corect term is 'falling step'; it showes how much you know about Dempsey's book. And it is present in corect WC, please hear me out: The falling step is a way of translating your body mass (m) on the step + lead leg that coresponds to your punching motion. In WT it's the same concept, only you don't step with your mass on the lead leg, you slide-step with your mass. Example: In WT it is sayed your weight must be placeted on the rear leg (let's call it point B) and with your front leg (point A) must be free of mass. We will call your oponent's CoM on the ground point C, now the corect WT step must move your mass (back leg !) from point B to point C.
NB: I box now, so I admit that sometimes you need to place your mass on your front leg. In boxing sparing it's great bc you don't have to worry about low thai kicks or take-downs.
And were ever did you see chain punchung in a boxing mach, remember Jack's book is from a spor-boxing perspective. Cheers.

Nice to meet you and I have only just come into this forum but that explanation is bollocks, sorry been sitting for a few minutes trying to think of a more civilised way of saying what I think but it's the only suitable one,

While saying that I do teach that there is no weight the the front leg, but where I disagree with the WT methodology is trying to move forward like "Skippy", when moving in toward your opponent, closing the range down so that you are in hitting distance, the front leg steps and therefore has no weight on it so all the weight must be on the back leg, the big change is when the front foot lands it now has to be thought of as the "REAR" leg, even though it is in front of you!?! because as part of the motion into your opponent your body mass will be shifting to a point between what was the front foot (now rear) and your targets centreline, giving a structure that you can fire all the muscle groups through and into your opponent.

Once the front leg becomes the rear, what was the 'rear' now STEPS NEVER SLIDES (reality check, rough ground not nice gym floor! nuff said lol) in a circling motion so that the knee covers your lower centreline as you move in, once it has protected the centreline from any attack in the split second it takes to make the move it now again obviously has no weight on it and is free to change into whatever is relevant, a defensive stop kick, leg trap, an attacking kick to leg (which ever joint) or merely landing with your FULL WEIGHT on it to use as a REAR LEG as you continue to move into your opponent.

Actually I teach what is closely related to the Dempsey 'falling step' specifically in the third part of Chum Kiu, however I change it slightly, whereas Dempsey co-ordinates the punch off the rear leg with the landing of the 'falling step', I maintain that you want to develop you twitch energies to kick in BEFORE the foot lands along with your inch-punch capabilities, if you are punching off the rear leg, once the front foot lands and becomes the rear you can then apply what Dempsey terms a shovel hook, which I relate to the uppercut in Biu Gee.

Well that should get the discussion rolling a bit so will leave it there and like a good boy on Bonfire Night I will stand back after lighting blue touch paper