'Things I should have learned about WC in a year but didnt.'

[Thai Bri]

I'll get back to a more thorough reply when I can. In short it will be along the lines of

TJ - it seems that anything that "works" falls under your definition of WC. That is contradictory. How can we train in these wonderful forms etc. yet, on the other hand.... if it works we still claim it as Wing Chun! Nah. Not fair.

TV - He didn't who you how to "apply" anything. He showed you how to "do" it. There is a difference. We can all do it when you say "attack me with this". You're ready for it AND the other guy doesn't really want to fill you in! No, I don't expect him to demo in any other way on a student. But don't get too carried away.

Richard Dimitri has a cool way of demonstrating his stuff though. He gets any voiolunteer up and says "Attack me as hard as you can in any way that you want." Then he deals with them. He has yet to lose and, to my knowledge, hasn't given anyone a bad injury. Let's see WC replicate that.

No offence intended to Sam Kwok. He never gave me any grief. I noted with some disappointment that, at my 2nd grading, bot Kev and Dave were a little "short" with him. I don't know why, but it was openly doen in front of us all.

I do, indeed, believe in cross training. It is in every martial artists interest to do it. It's this tendency to claim that whatever works is still Wing Chun that gets my goat. As evidenced by TJ.

[Troll Virus]

TV - He didn't who you how to "apply" anything. He showed you how to "do" it. There is a difference. We can all do it when you say "attack me with this". You're ready for it AND the other guy doesn't really want to fill you in! No, I don't expect him to demo in any other way on a student. But don't get too carried away.

That's what I asked him to do.
I taught for over ten years prior to this.
I know the distinction thanks.

I do, indeed, believe in cross training. It is in every martial artists interest to do it. It's this tendency to claim that whatever works is still Wing Chun that gets my goat. As evidenced by TJ.

It's no great secret you are specifically down on WC.
You're coming at it from a non CMA viewpoint.
Wing Chun is Kung Fu.
Kung Fu is hard to specifically translate, but means work done, hard work, work in progress, effort, commitment etc.
That kind of thing.
So when someone going from a CMA system goes into another, they still view it as part of their work.
Kung Fu is not a style!

Where I may differ from both yourself and Tj.
I don't believe in styles or systems as being magical coats of armour you can spray on any individual with a guarantee of success.

[Thai Bri]

"He certainly showed me how he could apply WC to those attacks."

You know the difference? Explain them how he showed you how he could "apply" them then rather than merely "doing" them.

Now the "Kung Fu" bit. Yes, I am also aware that the phrase is used to describe more or less ANYTHING that has been done well. But that was not the point being made. Clearly. It has not been said that "since this went well it was Kung Fu." The claim is "this went well as it followed the principles of Wing Chun."

That is very different, and the argument weak. We can all claim that handstand whilst knitting with your feet is good Wing Chun then could we? Because someone may be able to do it very well, therefore "good Kung Fu" therefore good Wing Chun." It follows from your arguments. But it is nonsense.

If you're determined to claim that it is good, then all power to you. But this tendency to keep redefining the terms is suspect. It's a bit like saying something like "Black is really white" and then, when pushed, start saying "Yes, but a very very dark white is like a grey, and grey is a very very light form of black."

Sounds good, if you're into self delusion.

It really isn't that hard to convince me, if the evidence is there. Anyone into youtube can show you examples of boxing, Thai, BJJ, Judo etc. etc. proving its worth against fully resisting opponents.

Yet you? No..... but you're on the periphery of good arts.... trying to steal a bit here and there......but still calling it Wing Chun. Or write about mysterious fights that never seem to be on film....... The ones that are there always showing Wing Chun in a less than favourable light. I've recently had a similar discussion with a guy on another forum. He has done his best to find a clip of WC being effectively used against a resisting opponent. This was the best he came up with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vUCCtb9uOs

He really thought that the guy padded up was doing his best to attack the Wing Chun master. I saw a guy sticking his arm out and then freezing. What do you see? Can you find anything better?

If you do I'll tell him, because he's feeling a little despondent at the moment!

[Troll Virus]

[QUOTE=Thai Bri;236730]"He certainly showed me how he could apply WC to those attacks."
You see, you're mis-quoting me.
I wrote;
"He certainly showed me how he could apply WC to those attacks.
I have enough of an eye to know what I'm looking at.
Notably at a seminar in Edinburgh, Sam took on an attack from a bouncer with 26" biceps and made him look like a child.

You know the difference? Explain them how he showed you how he could "apply" them then rather than merely "doing" them.

Can you offer a better way of applying them than doing them?
That's not what you mean though is it.
You mean he should have closets full of Kato lookalikes jumping out and throwing non WC attacks at random dont you?

Now the "Kung Fu" bit. Yes, I am also aware that the phrase is used to describe more or less ANYTHING that has been done well. But that was not the point being made. Clearly. It has not been said that "since this went well it was Kung Fu." The claim is "this went well as it followed the principles of Wing Chun."

You misunderstand me.
I merely offered on explanation as to why there is a tendency, especially within CMA to look at everything relative to a core art .

That is very different, and the argument weak. We can all claim that handstand whilst knitting with your fett is good Wing Chun then could we?

Yeah, maybe it'd be good for Chi Gerk.

If you're determined to claim that it is good, then all power to you.

What I'm determined to claim, is that it is what you make of it, and not what it makes of you.

But this tendency to keep redefining the terms is suspect. It's a bit like saying something like "Black is really white" and then, when pushed, start saying "Yes, but a very very dark white is like a grey, and ghrey is a very very light form of black."

Sorry, but it's a complex world out there.
If it was all black and white, there'd be no discussion worth having.

[Thai Bri]

How about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUfel14H_E&mode=related&search=

[Troll Virus]

It really isn't that hard to convince me, if the evidence is there. Anyone into youtube can show you examples of boxing, Thai, BJJ, Judo etc. etc. proving its worth against fully resisting opponents.

I guess it boils down to what convinces you.
For you it's obviously victory in a limited sporting format, thus we boil down into all the crappy circular arguements.

Yet you? No..... but you're on the periphery of good arts.... trying to steal a bit here and there......but still calling it Wing Chun.

When did I say that?

Or write about mysterious fights that never seem to be on film.......

When did I do that?

[Thai Bri]

I edited my post whilst you were making yours. Have another go at answering.

See if you can do it without meaningless cheap shots and one liners that don't actually add up.

Wing Chun people say that all the time. We've already covered how you lot chicken out by mysteriously claiming that the sporting context is not a real fight. Its the closest we can do in a civillised world, and the overlap is easily close enough to get a meaningful assessment. It is certainly more meaningful all the anecdotal crap you come up with.

Here's a hint re application. When my grappling showed me a technique, he did just that. He showed me. Whe we rolled around? Or when I saw him roll with someone else? Then he "applied" it. Get the difference? No Kato required.

It isn't difficult, unless you're into an art that does very little in the way of pressure testing. Like Wing Chun. Is that what he did in the Edinburgh seminar? Did he get the bicep bulging guy to come at him with anything he wanted? Or did your Master merely do another demo, with the bicep guy actually wanting it to work, like most people do when they attend a seminar......

Is it filmed? Is anything similar to this filmed? Can you find a genuine film of anyone in Wing Chun beating someone who is both outside of that style AND non compliant?

Let's see you produce it for us all. Guess what folks? He won't.

Of course the world is made up of more than black and white. I never said that it wasn't. I said that you are the equivalent of someone who says that black IS white, and vice versa. But you try to bat the point away with the use of non sensical one liners.

You're always hiding between the lines, taking things just outside of their actual meaning.... you pretend that I have made a slightly different point, and then argue with that. I never said the world is only black and white.

You are lying to yourself. It is common in Martial Arts, and very common in the non pressure tested arts that involve too much compliant training.

[Troll Virus]

I edited my post whilst you were making yours. Have another go at answering.

See if you can do it without meaningless cheap shots and one liners that don't actually add up.

Just responding in your chosen style.

Here's a hint re application. When my grappling showed me a technique, he did just that. He showed me. Whe we rolled around? Or when I saw him roll with someone else? Then he "applied" it. Get the difference? No Kato required.

Of course I do you patronising twat.

It isn't difficult, unless you're into an art that does very little in the way of pressure testing. Like Wing Chun.

No particular arguement here.

Is that what he did in the Edinburgh seminar? Is it filmed? Is anything similar to this filmed?

Let's see you produce it for us all. Guess what folks? He won't.

Of course I won't.
I was too busy training at the time to go and buy a video camera and rush back to catch the footage just on the vague offchance some oaf would want to see it for themselves.
There may well be footage of it, as there were other people there with cameras.
I can't say

Of course the world is made up of more than black and white. I never said that it wasn't. I said that you are the equivalent of someone who says that black IS white, and vice versa. But you try to bat the point away with the use of non sensical one liners.

Oh really?

[Thai Bri]

TJ, you're needed here urgently mate. Your right hand man here is doing something that right hands are made for...... making himself look like a right eedjut! Haw haw haw!

Hey! Don't restrict yourself to that seminar! Find any film anywhere across the entire world wide web! They have cameras on rooftops as well you know!

Haw haw haw!

[Troll Virus]

TB, could you maybe just make a post and not edit it.
If you can't say it right first time around, it probably wasn't worth saying.

[Troll Virus]

I trained with a guy like you once TB.
When the main guy was away, he used to be asked to teach in his place.
As the main guy had increasing health troubles, this guy took the clsses almost every week.
He was big, very strong and had a real mean low kick.
One by one, everyone stopped going, and the club was shut down.

Why?

Well he too though he was the only one with a correct pov.
He thought everyone needed his view of reality.
He'd overcook locks and submissions.
Knock out teeth and break ribs.

After it all shut down I had a discussion with him about it, making it clear, that 'in my reality' had he injured me in class, I'd have been waiting for him outside and put a brick into the back of his skull.
Not very sporting I'll grant you.
That's reality for you.

[Thai Bri]

What a pile of crap, in so many respects.

Just how many stories are you going to invent? And, even if it happened, where have I said that people should beat up their students? And you'd have hit him with a brick? Oooo. What a big boy! Haw haw haw!

Right hand man syndrome again?

Please try to keep it somewhere near relevant. Pathetic.

[tjwingchun]

TJ, you're needed here urgently mate. Your right hand man here is doing something that right hands are made for...... making himself look like a right wanker! Haw haw haw!

Hey! Don't restrict yourself to that seminar! Find any film anywhere across the entire world wide web! They have cameras on rooftops as well you know!

Haw haw haw!

Just back from the pub watching Newcastle scrape through a UEFA leg, I have no right hand man, I need both hands to qualify as a wanker, if you say you are not a wanker then you are a "Lying Brian"

What is the history with you two, (TB & TV) I have only been here a matter of a couple of days and I get the feeling you two should be married!

Thai Bri, I get the impression that the only way for you to believe me is to meet me, I am in the process of planning seminars around the country before I bugger off to Majorca, let me know your approx area and I will see if I can book one in your vacinity so I can let you know when I am around, don't even have to come to the seminar, we can have a chat over a pint before or after, you being a policeman I can trust that you will not try to take advantage of a Geordie thicko in wanting to humiliate me in public? you could always organise it yourself and claim the agents %!

Troll Virus "Notably at a seminar in Edinburgh, Sam took on an attack from a bouncer with 26" biceps and made him look like a child."

Are you talking about Paul Smith's club, I was up there a year of so back and apart from Paul wanting value for money (check out Paul's full contact record Thai Bri) I remember this lad about 6'4" approx 20+ stone who worked with Paul on the doors who I had to push around and tie up to get over the subject of the seminar which I believe was around 'manipulation through structure'. Was it videoed ask Paul? But bringing back memories of a canny day in Edinburgh

[Thai Bri]

I like the idea of arranging a meet. I am in the Manchester area.

This can be a mature exchange of ideas and concepts between two adults. No silly challenge matches.

Yes?

[tjwingchun]

I like the idea of arranging a meet. I am in the Manchester area.

This can be a mature exchange of ideas and concepts between two adults. No silly challenge matches.

Yes?

You know the law, I know the law, we both have a long term interest in reality training! Who is going to get silly, I have too many letters after my name for a Magistrate to be fooled, you have a career to lose!

Mature? I cannot be certain that I will be serious all the time and I won't take the p+ss I am planning a seminar around Manchester 11/11 Billy is in China at the moment, Dave organised the last one and is slightly further out of Manchester than I would wish, but that is hardly a problen for me, I have other options also, but if you fancy organising an event it is an opportunity, if not I will welcome you to be part of the event.