'Things I should have learned about WC in a year but didnt.'

[tjwingchun]

First proper thread but will carry on the stance theme started by Thai Bri in my 'introduction'.

Most peoples idea of a Wing Chun stance is from stupid people trying to use the stances from the forms to fight with rather than the knowledge that they give you if you investigate them properly.

Stances from the first 2 forms are there simply to make you aware of your legs, develop strength and balence, in the third it is more flexible for real use.

To understand you legs takes time, hence many think of Chum Kiu as the most difficult form to learn as it introduces you to how you arms work together with the rest of the body and links the hand to the ground via the stances and the generation of energy through the various muscle groups.

The 'Skippy' hop stance that you see in many schools especially used along with chain punching is the most destructive practice routine for power development.

Simplifying each aspect of stepping and how it is being used allows you to involve it into everthing you do in Wing Chun.

Thai Bri I see the dropping step in the first and last section of Chum Kiu also linked to the uppercut in Biu Gee, but I will put more details in the next post.

Chain punching I only use as an exercise not an application, (though it can be effective against unskilled fighters), similar to the speed ball training in boxing which I respect and understand now through the Dempsey book.

[Troll Virus]

[QUOTE=tjwingchun;236478]

Most peoples idea of a Wing Chun stance is from stupid people trying to use the stances from the forms to fight with rather than the knowledge that they give you if you investigate them properly.

LOL.
Bless you, I concur.
Would it be fair to add that, if anything, 'Goat Clamping' stance is a tool for exaggerating balance problems?

The 'Skippy' hop stance that you see in many schools especially used along with chain punching is the most destructive practice routine for power development.

That makes me want to ask 'Why is it used then?'

Simplifying each aspect of stepping and how it is being used allows you to involve it into everthing you do in Wing Chun.

What is the effect 'outside' of Wing Chun?

Chain punching I only use as an exercise not an application, (though it can be effective against unskilled fighters), similar to the speed ball training in boxing which I respect and understand now through the Dempsey book.

I think this is one of the areas of misconception with WC in terms of class construction.
To some, it would seem that the common structure, with each class starting with SNT and going on to chain punching as a warm up would seem to be time consuming and innefficient.
I could have everyone warmed up, sweating and focussed in under 10 minutes, so if chain punching is just an exercise, why does the non WC world see it as something else?
To me, it's a manifestation of the principle of 'constant forward pressure'.
A principle that can be applied in 'oh so many ways'.

[tjwingchun]

LOL.
Bless you, I concur.
Would it be fair to add that, if anything, 'Goat Clamping' stance is a tool for exaggerating balance problems?

I explain the basic stance of SLT as two stances going right and left in preparation for the turning in Chum Kiu, it cannot be thought of as a forward stance as the hips are closed, but once you see it as two stances it makes sense and you can visualise its use. To make two forward stances simply turn the feet out and so open the hips to allow energy from the floor to be utilised.

That makes me want to ask 'Why is it used then?'

Misunderstanding/bad instruction/taking up training time by lazy instructors. Take your pick but you can change it into effective training simply by focusing on how stepping is used and the processes involved, then linking it to the punch, not just doing two things together hoping they work in unison.

What is the effect 'outside' of Wing Chun?

Once you understand how your energy is produced in isolation you can use it in any aspect of your life, I had a competitive power lifter who increased his lift by 5% which is considerable at his level just by developing knowledge of his basic stance.

I think this is one of the areas of misconception with WC in terms of class construction.
To some, it would seem that the common structure, with each class starting with SNT and going on to chain punching as a warm up would seem to be time consuming and innefficient.
I could have everyone warmed up, sweating and focussed in under 10 minutes, so if chain punching is just an exercise, why does the non WC world see it as something else?
To me, it's a manifestation of the principle of 'constant forward pressure'.
A principle that can be applied in 'oh so many ways'.

As well as 'constant forward pressure', there are several important concepts and principles of Wing Chun that can be understood via chainpunching, relating to centreline, co-ordination, or simply learning to relax, it can also be a useful self training tool something to do if you have a few spare minutes outside the normal practice hours.

One of the things I try to put into students heads is to visualise what they are trying to achieve through a specific training routine. If you have no real goal in mind how can you get anywhere?

The non-Wing Chun world just sees what they think is there, a rapid, short, light weighted punch that looks ineffective, without knowing that it is only teaching about the arms and shoulders, later through the various parts of the forms it develops so that the energy is linked to that from the muscle groups over the joints from the floor through the heel/knee/hip/waist/back/stomach/shoulder/arm eventually getting to the target.

[Troll Virus]

I explain the basic stance of SLT as two stances going right and left in preparation for the turning in Chum Kiu, it cannot be thought of as a forward stance as the hips are closed, but once you see it as two stances it makes sense and you can visualise its use. To make two forward stances simply turn the feet out and so open the hips to allow energy from the floor to be utilised.

I get that.
My background in various other CMA gives me an insight into what you mean.
As sson as you mention 'stance' in a contemporary MA discussion it brings up a plethora of misconceptions though.
To me, a stance, is an ideal, momentary manifestation of structure, which in practice, rarely occurs.

Misunderstanding/bad instruction/taking up training time by lazy instructors. Take your pick but you can change it into effective training simply by focusing on how stepping is used and the processes involved, then linking it to the punch, not just doing two things together hoping they work in unison.

No arguement here.
Extract the principle, then employ it.

Once you understand how your energy is produced in isolation you can use it in any aspect of your life, I had a competitive power lifter who increased his lift by 5% which is considerable at his level just by developing knowledge of his basic stance.

I could give examples of this myself, but does this really help those who have a year to turn themselves into fighters?

As well as 'constant forward pressure', there are several important concepts and principles of Wing Chun that can be understood via chainpunching, relating to centreline, co-ordination, or simply learning to relax, it can also be a useful self training tool something to do if you have a few spare minutes outside the normal practice hours.

True.
I could add to your list.

One of the things I try to put into students heads is to visualise what they are trying to achieve through a specific training routine. If you have no real goal in mind how can you get anywhere?

Is the room full of blank expressions at this point?

The non-Wing Chun world just sees what they think is there, a rapid, short, light weighted punch that looks ineffective, without knowing that it is only teaching about the arms and shoulders, later through the various parts of the forms it develops so that the energy is linked to that from the muscle groups over the joints from the floor through the heel/knee/hip/waist/back/stomach/shoulder/arm eventually getting to the target.

So many ways that could be misread.
I understand what you mean though.

On the subject of this thread though;
What are your thoughts on 'One year of Wing Chun'?

Assuming that there are expectations that the system should be producing 'fighters' (whatever they are), do you feel Wing Chun fulfills these needs within a year?

If the onus is on the individual to extract what they need, does Wing Chun make this clear?
I ask as clearly some people feel 'let down'.

Me personally, I don't believe any style/system has much to do with changing one kind of person into another, other than how they perceive their own training.
Never been a sheep myself.

[Thai Bri]

Hey, like the new sig line. It certainly says something about you.

Now this is all a little too "Emperor's new clothes" for me. We have our new WC "expert" talking, and TV nodding along, as if he knew most of it already too..... just forgot to say.

My favourite bit is how WC helped a powerlifter increase his lift by 5%.

Pop into a good class Power Lifting meet and replicate that with the top guys. These silly claims are so easy to make, but rarely actually verified.

A Wing Chun trait.....

[Thai Bri]

I like the title of the thread also. Things I should have learnt about Wing Chun in a year, but didn't.

Please all bear in mind that my lessons were in TJ's lineage by the two top guys in the country at that time, excepting Master Kwok himself.

Please also bear in mind that I jumped 2 grades at my first grading, and then was succesful at the next one. AND bear in mind that they wanted me to open up my own club.

Something is amiss here. Either TJ is talking nonsense or his seniors back in the day were appalling.

Both may be true.

[tjwingchun]

Hey, like the new sig line. It certainly says something about you.

Now this is all a little too "Emperor's new clothes" for me. We have our new WC "expert" talking, and TV nodding along, as if he knew most of it already too..... just forgot to say.

My favourite bit is how WC helped a powerlifter increase his lift by 5%.

Pop into a good class Power Lifting meet and replicate that with the top guys. These silly claims are so easy to make, but rarely actually verified.

A Wing Chun trait.....

Only telling you what Dave told me and don't have reason to disbelieve him, it may have just been making him aware of the structure of his hip and by using the feet in stance focused him, was his developing awareness of himself not a technique that he claimed made the difference.

You will have to explain the "Emperor" comment, I don't need my ego or Wing Chun beliefs protected by anyone but myself and far as "expert" goes, if Yip Chun refers to me as "Master Trevor" and gets me onstage at the opening of the Yip Man Tong in Foshan to say something to the hordes (apart form the fact that my Geordie accent makes it difficult for people in UK to understand me never mind the millions watching Chinese TV lol) it shows he respects my Wing Chun, that means something to me.

I would use the term "experienced" rather than "expert", Wing Chun is a vast subject and like science you can only specialise in small areas while having general understanding of the whole, the ethos of TJ Wing Chun is that I only profess knowledge of how I understand Wing Chun and try to get others to understand themselves and NOT that it is THE ONLY WAY ALL Wing Chun should be done.

I only speak for myself and justify everthing I say with what I believe to be the truth, I can understand that you may have been faced with fools in the past and I don't ask that you treat me with any favours I am old enough and ugly enough to stand on my own two feet and have done so in the Wing Chun community on a professional level for over 23 years.

I am only halfway through your epic " Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness." thread so I have an inkling where you are coming from.

I have already said I will answer the best I can any questions that you have, if you question my honesty for the sake of a cheap shot, then why should I respect you enough to give what has taken me 33 years to sift through?

No secrets, just my answers to questions I have either asked myself or been asked by students.

So if you think I am walking around with my Wing Chun leaving me naked and vulnerable you are welcome to point it out, but if you are just going to deny everything I say as lies! What is the point of asking me in the first place?

[Thai Bri]

Cheap shot?

The title of the thread is a cheap shot. If you're going to give it, you'd better be able to take it.

By the way, check out some of the claims made about WC in that thread. Even you will be a little embarrassed by them.

[tjwingchun]

I like the title of the thread also. Things I should have learnt about Wing Chun in a year, but didn't.

Please all bear in mind that my lessons were in TJ's lineage by the two top guys in the country at that time, excepting Master Kwok himself.

Please also bear in mind that I jumped 2 grades at my first grading, and then was succesful at the next one. AND bear in mind that they wanted me to open up my own club.

Something is amiss here. Either TJ is talking nonsense or his seniors back in the day were appalling.

Both may be true.

As I have just said I can only talk about MY Wing Chun and Dave and Kevin left the Association not that long after I joined so I have little to compare with, my ways of teaching have changed drastically over the 20+ years but the fundemental principles and concepts have not.

I disagree with many things that Sifu and Sigung teach as I am my own person, just as my students don't teach exactly how I showed them, as we all have our differences. All I suggest to instructors is that any changes must be accompanied by solid reasoning.

Remember Thai Bri you are talking about 20 years ago, though I know of an Instructor who started with Alan Lamb before me and is still teaching exactly the same stuff we were doing in '74 with no real development, he is comfortable with what he teaches but it does not stand up to criticism, so he does not allow students to question, but that is him not ALL Wing Chun.

I am interested in discussion of how Wing Chun is relevant today and look to how to take it forward not bury it!

[Thai Bri]

People have taken WC forwards. By cross training. It's just that the more they cross train the less WC gets left. Why is that?

[tjwingchun]

Cheap shot?

The title of the thread is a cheap shot. If you're going to give it, you'd better be able to take it.

I took it from Troll Virus's post in my Introduction as a light hearted way to start a threadon stances.

It was not a shot at you, if you felt that then I apologise, I have not known you long enough to risk my sense of humour on you, but be sure once we get to know each other we should have a laugh,

[tjwingchun]

People have taken WC forwards. By cross training. It's just that the more they cross train the less WC gets left. Why is that?

I put that down to people not fully understanding how the forms can be interpretated, I have reasons for every part of all the forms some are not relevant until the whole system is understood, the trouble is too many think they have finished their learning with the forms and don't get to the deeper, simpler ways of applying Wing Chun.

[Sagacious Lu]

I put that down to people not fully understanding how the forms can be interpretated, I have reasons for every part of all the forms some are not relevant until the whole system is understood, the trouble is too many think they have finished their learning with the forms and don't get to the deeper, simpler ways of applying Wing Chun.

Why are the simpler things taught last? Wouldn't it make more sense to teach the simplist things first? IMHO the simple techniques are usually the most effective.

[tjwingchun]

I get that.
My background in various other CMA gives me an insight into what you mean.
As sson as you mention 'stance' in a contemporary MA discussion it brings up a plethora of misconceptions though.
To me, a stance, is an ideal, momentary manifestation of structure, which in practice, rarely occurs.





On the subject of this thread though;
What are your thoughts on 'One year of Wing Chun'?

Assuming that there are expectations that the system should be producing 'fighters' (whatever they are), do you feel Wing Chun fulfills these needs within a year?

If the onus is on the individual to extract what they need, does Wing Chun make this clear?
I ask as clearly some people feel 'let down'.

Me personally, I don't believe any style/system has much to do with changing one kind of person into another, other than how they perceive their own training.
Never been a sheep myself.

Over the years several of my students have put down their training for ways in which they have progressed as individuals, but I also understand your reticence in believing the style was the answer, it may have just been coincidence with their 'growing up' and natural psychological development, who can say?

I think Wing Chun has the tools to allow an individual to develop basic self defence abilities, I have had several students who have used simple chain punching to put off attackers, from school yard scenario to drunken brawl on a Saturday night, but I would not say they are definitive to the effectiveness of Wing Chun just that a little bit of knowledge can go along way in the majority of street situations, but up against seasoned streetfighters or martial artists a beginner with less than 2-3 years tend not to have the knowledge of body mechanics to generate power from the floor and put full bodyweight behind a strike to make it decisive.

My understanding of Siu Lim Tao, or my take on the "Little Idea" translation, goes along one of the lines I have heard came from Yip Man, in that it is to get rid of all the 'little' or 'small' ideas in your head and focus on the form.

This tells me that in essence it is a form of 'meditation', or concentration, teaching you to focus on the movements of the body and investigate the mechanics of how your arms work, without being distracted by what you were doing the night before? how are you going to pay bills? or how much of a prat you look in the stance?

The preparation that Siu Lim Tao offers for the progression to Chum Kiu is invaluable. The discipline learned through investigating the simple movements of the arm, a relatively co-ordinated part of the body, translated to both arms independantly, the legs and whole body usage becomes a whole different ball game, but the awareness developed in Siu Lim Tao helps isolate all the movements into abstract, exaggerated techniques, not for application but for co-ordination and knowledge of SELF.

As with most Martial Arts you only start to get your foot onthe learning ladder after about a minimum of 4 years, the time I think a good student with decent instructor should be through the whole system, then once they have taken a student of their own through the complete system can they really be considered as getting somewhere, lol.

After just one year I would expect a fair knowledge of simple application of SLT, basic leg work, starting Chum Kiu and the beginnings of Chi Sau skills. Again it depends on the individuals involved and the circumstances of their training to make any definite statements.

Naaa'ever been into the sheep experience either, got no wellies , nor pulling the wool over people eyes.

[tjwingchun]

Why are the simpler things taught last? Wouldn't it make more sense to teach the simplist things first? IMHO the simple techniques are usually the most effective.

Its a natural learning process, its not that they are held back but you need to know how all of your body works individually before putting it back together, and once you can see the whole picture you begin to notice how simple it is, but you have to learn the language before you can converse.