'Things I should have learned about WC in a year but didnt.'

[medic06]

I like the way the Karate guy holds him back with one hand to wind up that shot to the gut.

[Troll Virus]

Questions for TJ;

1/ What , ideally, would you say a student of Wing Chun should have learned within the time frame of the topic, one year?

2/ How would you rate that individuals potential in confrontation with someone untrained in any MA?

3/ How would you rate that individuals potential in confrontation with someone trained in NHB MA over the same time frame?

4/Are these fair and relevant questions?

[Thai Bri]

4/ No................

[tjwingchun]

Think I covered these same points back on page 1?

1/ What , ideally, would you say a student of Wing Chun should have learned within the time frame of the topic, one year?

Old "After just one year I would expect a fair knowledge of simple application of SLT, basic leg work, starting Chum Kiu and the beginnings of Chi Sau skills. Again it depends on the individuals involved and the circumstances of their training to make any definite statements."

New "The most essential part of the first years training is to develop the strategies for learning the whole system, initially these are only involving learning new movements of the arms as they are the easiest to co-ordinate and control, so the un-natural body mechanics can be analysed through practice.

While the arms are being re-programmed at the same time self defence principles are introduced, most importantly appreciating the centreline, defending your own and attacking your opponents.

Straight line attacks, simultaneous defence and attack, 'stay with what comes, follow what retreats and if the hand is free hit', these are first year concepts that run alongside Siu Lim Tao."

2/ How would you rate that individuals potential in confrontation with someone untrained in any MA?

Old "I think Wing Chun has the tools to allow an individual to develop basic self defence abilities, I have had several students who have used simple chain punching to put off attackers, from school yard scenario to drunken brawl on a Saturday night, but I would not say they are definitive to the effectiveness of Wing Chun just that a little bit of knowledge can go along way in the majority of street situations."

New "As with any MA, give any person an extra advantage, trained confidence or simply relevant learned responses to deal with basic self defence and they will be better equiped to deal with the majority of street confrontations."

3/ How would you rate that individuals potential in confrontation with someone trained in NHB MA over the same time frame?

Now comes the biggy, to be honest the NHB trained individual will have the advantage in the initial stages purely because they are, from the start, dealing with the psychology of real fighting and actual physical contact.

Their experience range is greater in that they are already used to having opponents in their faces, but where in my opinion Wing Chun catches up is after 2-3 years when chi sau has had time to work its way into the equation as long as it is trained correctly.

After 4 years, in my mind it is not so much about the system than the individual.

4/Are these fair and relevant questions?

Relevant and fair to a certain extent, but the infinite parameters of reality make my answers theoretical and hence open to criticism by those who have differing personal experiences, this is not a cop out just how anything can happen in the next half hour, ask Steve Irwin R.I.P.

[Tom Yum]

Question

There are tae kwon do stylists (Yilmaz) who have entered K-1 and knocked out some so-so kickboxers and demonstrated heart against a world champ like Masato.

And Chinese stylists (Gibson) who have blended there styles with muay thai and have knocked out some decent fighters in thailand.

There are kenpo stylists (Hackney) who have knocked out fighters and other athletes and demonstrated heart against world class grapplers (Gracie) and MMA artists.

Can the traditional wingchun community produce a successfull full-contact fighter using wingchun alone?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would definitely catch the attention of the martial arts world.

[Troll Virus]

Can the traditional wingchun community produce a successfull full-contact fighter using wingchun alone?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would definitely catch the attention of the martial arts world.

I think it potentially could, but that's not really it's goal.
Is that a goal that would best serve the system, or those intent on such proofs though?

[Troll Virus]

Think I covered these same points back on page 1?

Never hurts to clarify, though I apologise if I make you repeat yourself.

Old "After just one year I would expect a fair knowledge of simple application of SLT, basic leg work, starting Chum Kiu and the beginnings of Chi Sau skills. Again it depends on the individuals involved and the circumstances of their training to make any definite statements."

New "The most essential part of the first years training is to develop the strategies for learning the whole system, initially these are only involving learning new movements of the arms as they are the easiest to co-ordinate and control, so the un-natural body mechanics can be analysed through practice.

While the arms are being re-programmed at the same time self defence principles are introduced, most importantly appreciating the centreline, defending your own and attacking your opponents.

Straight line attacks, simultaneous defence and attack, 'stay with what comes, follow what retreats and if the hand is free hit', these are first year concepts that run alongside Siu Lim Tao."

I know that's a lot to take in in a year.
Is that efficient, in terms of those out to get a quick-fix Self Defence solution?

Old "I think Wing Chun has the tools to allow an individual to develop basic self defence abilities, I have had several students who have used simple chain punching to put off attackers, from school yard scenario to drunken brawl on a Saturday night, but I would not say they are definitive to the effectiveness of Wing Chun just that a little bit of knowledge can go along way in the majority of street situations."

New "As with any MA, give any person an extra advantage, trained confidence or simply relevant learned responses to deal with basic self defence and they will be better equiped to deal with the majority of street confrontations."

Can you really put it down to 'programming a response'?
I know my own mind, but I also have testimony to WC people getting 'owned' in Bar Car Parks up and down the country.
To me, it's a lot more to do with what's in the individual, than what they train in.?

Now comes the biggy, to be honest the NHB trained individual will have the advantage in the initial stages purely because they are, from the start, dealing with the psychology of real fighting and actual physical contact.

Don't know that I'd agree with that.
NHB sport is one thing, NHB not-sport is another.

Their experience range is greater in that they are already used to having opponents in their faces, but where in my opinion Wing Chun catches up is after 2-3 years when chi sau has had time to work its way into the equation as long as it is trained correctly.

Here, we step outside the boundaries of the topic, which is WC in one year!

After 4 years, in my mind it is not so much about the system than the individual.

I understand.

Relevant and fair to a certain extent, but the infinite parameters of reality make my answers theoretical and hence open to criticism by those who have differing personal experiences, this is not a cop out just how anything can happen in the next half hour, ask Steve Irwin R.I.P.

Absolutely.
I apologise if I 'put you on the spot'.
I truly appreciate that you;

a) Didn't have to step up to this forum.

and

b) Have no obligation to answer questions.

I have a 'second round' of questions if you are willing?

[tjwingchun]

There are tae kwon do stylists (Yilmaz) who have entered K-1 and knocked out some so-so kickboxers and demonstrated heart against a world champ like Masato.

And Chinese stylists (Gibson) who have blended there styles with muay thai and have knocked out some decent fighters in thailand.

There are kenpo stylists (Hackney) who have knocked out fighters and other athletes and demonstrated heart against world class grapplers (Gracie) and MMA artists.

Can the traditional wingchun community produce a successfull full-contact fighter using wingchun alone?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would definitely catch the attention of the martial arts world.

I believe I am as 'pure' Wing Chun as it gets, but I still have influences from Aikido, Boxing and my interest in NHB fighting, but all the techniques I use I can relate back to specific parts of one of the forms and through chi sau I can practice how I can use those techniques while in a conflict situation, and via 'entry techniques' I can rationalise how I get from 'no hands' contact, to 'one hand' then 'two hands' contact.

Even if I was in the spotlight of a competition using what I know to be PURE WING CHUN, others would be saying well he was using this from here and that from there.

Over the years when I have been involved in many street fights (mainly due to being a 'doorman') as well as having to face unfriendly chi sau 'playing' from various lineages of Wing Chun, I have adapted and carried on learning how better to understand myself when in conflict scenarios. I believe I teach in a very 'traditional' way, I no longer have the big classes and teach from a small gym at home (apart from seminars), so it is more 'family' orientated rather than 'institutional', but MY Wing Chun is not what I was taught, I hope it has developed as I hope that my students will further that development. 'OLD' style to me means it is past its 'sell by date', this does not mean it should be ignored or is wrong, only that it should have been superceded.

If you had a heart condition would you want a top surgeon from today or 1806 to perform on you?! it is not that people were not as intelligent or skillful in history, just that understanding, knowledge and development takes things forward.

There are some instances where 'OLD' knowledge has been lost, or forgotten and we have to try to mimic the tales that have been past down and investigate how to apply the so-called 'secrets', this loss of knowledge comes from teachers hiding or not giving ALL their knowledge to the students, I believe in teaching EVERYTHING to let a student fulfill their potential.

Sorry seem to be getting away from your questions but what I am trying to say is:-

Yes the traditional Wing Chun community will produce successful full-contact fighters

It already has but not in the hyped UFC arena, but I am sure it will, there are more clubs like Alan Orr's growing ( www.alanorr.com ) and with growth and numbers comes the inevitable increased chances of finding the 'right material' I have already talked about.

Finding a good fighter is one thing uncovering a champion is quite another, and good fighters are drawn to recognised 'stables', in boxing Terry Lawless is a big name but 'the best'? to make money for the ones at the very top, yes, but for the development of the individual fighter, no!

Slightly off track again but the point is that exceptional talent still needs developing, but talented people will be drawn to where they think is best for them and for Wing Chun to attract that talent we have to be seen to have the right tools.

I believe I have the right tools, but at 47 years old with a wrecked back and knackered body from the years of abuse when I was training a ridiculous amount (young and daft ) those tools are sharp but fragile lol it has taken me 33 years and 23 teaching professionally to get to my simple understanding of those tools.

Sagacious Lu asked
Why are the simpler things taught last? Wouldn't it make more sense to teach the simplist things first? IMHO the simple techniques are usually the most effective.

The problem is it takes years to realise the 'simple' stuff is simple and the other problem is that you still need the traditional methods because they have value for specific development, I teach stuff that I have just realised straightaway to my students, therefore shortcutting their learning curve by 33 years, which is why I believe I have the right tools to teach, but I don't have the right set-up around me nor students around me with the capability or WANT, whereas Alan Orr does and seems to be going in the right direction.

Yip Man told Yip Ching when asked if it was OK for him to change the way he taught Wing Chun, his reply was :-

"If you believe in it change it and teach it! You will find out if it was right to change it after your students practice it and they believe it, what ever is right will survive, if not it will disappear" not verbatum but you get the gist.

I have a firm belief that Wing Chun will continue to grow as long as it is taught correctly, that belief also includes Wing Chun being a major player in NHB in the future, just as I told my Sifu many years ago that he must have patience and not get disillusioned by the seeming 'success' of very bad Wing Chun.

As long as Wing Chun is kept strong it will thrive while the shite will fall by the wayside.

Anyway leave it here and let a few replies back so I can try to explain what I have said, I know what I mean but your interpretation may differ

[tjwingchun]

I know that's a lot to take in in a year.
Is that efficient, in terms of those out to get a quick-fix Self Defence solution?

I always send quick fixers to boxing if they don't mind the brain damage it will get them basic self protection skills a bit faster and they will psychologically 'feel' that they are learning to fight as their face and nose change shape

Can you really put it down to 'programming a response'?
I know my own mind, but I also have testimony to WC people getting 'owned' in Bar Car Parks up and down the country.
To me, it's a lot more to do with what's in the individual, than what they train in.?

Repetitive non-rhythic training creates the sub-conscious learned responses to be available, simple actions to simple triggers, which is why I don't practice self defence techniques as such, years ago I had a student who complained that I never showed him self defence moves like he'd seen in all the magazines that other styles do!

I threw rapid punches right and left low and high with a couple of kicks and he stopped them all, then I asked him what he wanted to be shown? He said I know I can stop those but what about bear hugs and other things!

The point is that if your training is for specific attacks then your brain will wait for those specific triggers, it all depends on how you are prepared.

All of my students that have told me of their encounters on the street said how they just responded before they realised it, Keith, the lad I was referring to above had a funny experience walking down his local high street, the path was quite narrow and he was just passing a bank whose doors opened directly onto the pavement, as Keith was passing a customer left, all he saw was something out of the side of his peripheral vision and he turned with a Pak sau into the guy's body, Keith is a gentle sort and was repeatedly apologising as was the fellow who has just emerged from the bank to what was in essence a heavy turning palm to the solar plexus and he was trying to apologise also when he could get any breath back

Another quiet schoolboy had the school bully confronting him after a class, I remember to this day the look on his face and excitement in his voice when he exclaimed "It's GREAT it FUCKING WORKS, I just punched him and his nose EXPLODED!!" As he is such a skinny quiet type apparently the bully went around school saying he walked into a wall to cover his embarrassment, so I disagree with the personal aspect as there are many other ex-students who are of quiet disposition that have related similar events to me.

Don't know that I'd agree with that.
NHB sport is one thing, NHB not-sport is another.

This is more where the personality comes into play, anybody who has a need and is happy to beat their mates up on a regular basis is much more likely to get involved in fighting as they enjoy it or feel the need to experience violence. (TIC)

Here, we step outside the boundaries of the topic, which is WC in one year!

I understand.

Wing Chun can not be chopped into neatly chronologically segmented bits, everything overlaps, bit like the scene from 'Lady and the Tramp' with the spaghetti, or the joke about a guy hard on his luck bet he could drink a pint of phlegm and got everyone in the bar to spit into a glass, a third of the way down his mates were puking and shouting that they would give him the money but he finished the full pint, asked aftewards why he did not stop when pleaded to he replied "IT WAS ONE LUMP"

Absolutely.
I apologise if I 'put you on the spot'.
I truly appreciate that you;

a) Didn't have to step up to this forum.

and

b) Have no obligation to answer questions.

I have a 'second round' of questions if you are willing?

No apologies necessary I love questions so bring'em all on lol.

[Thai Bri]

I think it potentially could, but that's not really it's goal.
Is that a goal that would best serve the system, or those intent on such proofs though?

How we dance on the edge of reason.

[tjwingchun]

How we dance on the edge of reason.

It's only the medication that keeps me from falling

[Troll Virus]

Can the traditional wingchun community produce a successfull full-contact fighter using wingchun alone?

Is that really relevant?
Not asking that to offend, but is that what you, personally, see as being the true measure of WC's efficacy?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would definitely catch the attention of the martial arts world.

Wouldn't they all want to say 'but he cross-trained in 'x' anyway?

[Troll Virus]

I always send quick fixers to boxing if they don't mind the brain damage it will get them basic self protection skills a bit faster and they will psychologically 'feel' that they are learning to fight as their face and nose change shape

That's cool on a few levels.
Firstly, correct me if I'm wrong, but you personally distinguish between those who are looking for what you offer, and those who won't get it.
That's beautifully honest.

Repetitive non-rhythic training creates the sub-conscious learned responses to be available, simple actions to simple triggers, which is why I don't practice self defence techniques as such, years ago I had a student who complained that I never showed him self defence moves like he'd seen in all the magazines that other styles do!

Again, you seem to break from the norm, as WC is deemed to be heavily stylised and pattern/programming based.

The point is that if your training is for specific attacks then your brain will wait for those specific triggers, it all depends on how you are prepared.

Here, we part ways somewhat perhaps (or perhaps not)?
To me, even while training specifics, it's important that an individual is still being creative, rather than simply allowing themselves to be programmed.
Phrases like 'muscle memory' do my box in.

All of my students that have told me of their encounters on the street said how they just responded before they realised it,

I used to drive up to 500 miles a day, often not realising all the actions I took decisions on because they were immemorable, rather than autonomous or sub-conscious.

Wing Chun can not be chopped into neatly chronologically segmented bits,

Relevant to the topic, I respect the honesty there.
I've never seen it that way myself, but obviously, others do.
For me, you are only as good as you are 'that day' and arts, seminars attended, time, belts, certificates & experience etc count for zip.

No apologies necessary I love questions so bring'em all on lol.

Prior to my next assault....

I'd just like to say that it's been a pleasure so far.

[Thai Bri]

You are an eedjut.

[eXcessiveForce]

Hmmm, seems a timeout is in order.

Nothing irritates me more than seeing complaints about posts the day I get back from a trip.