Wing Chun power

[Troll Virus]

And what does the boxer do in the clinch? He can't hit out...

Body shots, uppercuts, holding and hitting, head butting and elbows.
Boxers know lots bout dem things.

[Troll Virus]

Jubaji, stop posting stupid one liners that have no coherent argument. If you think that what I am saying is wrong then at least put an argument forward rather than make general comments that have no relevance.

LOL.
He's not about to stop now.
He's built a reputation on it.

[jubaji]

Jubaji, stop posting stupid one liners that have no coherent argument. If you think that what I am saying is wrong then at least put an argument forward rather than make general comments that have no relevance.

Simple solution kid, stop posting ignorant nonsense or STFU

[Red Rum]

And how many people have boxers knocked out from the clinch??

Generally, once boxers clinch, the ref has to break it up because it is going nowhere.

[Troll Virus]

And how many people have boxers knocked out from the clinch??

I don't know.
Do You?

Generally, once boxers clinch, the ref has to break it up because it is going nowhere.

Well it might do if it wasn't just a sport.

[Red Rum]

I don't know.
Do You?

That's my point - I've never seen it happen.

Well it might do if it wasn't just a sport.

Ah, so it isn't self defence then. Jubaji seems to think it is

[jubaji]

Trying to boost wing chun by arguing that boxing isn't practical is a strategy doomed to failure.

[Troll Virus]

That's my point - I've never seen it happen.


Ah, so it isn't self defence then. Jubaji seems to think it is

No it's not and no he doesn't.

Take a few deep breaths and come back when you have something to say that hasn't been said a zillion times already.

There's plenty horse carcasses, but only so much time to flog them in.

[Red Rum]

You will have to forgive a bit of my ignorance - I have only just joined this forum so I don't know what has been said previously.

I never said that boxing wasn't practical. I train it and train it hard. I am by no means anywhere near the pro standard of my training colleagues, but I can hold my own. Everyone I have spoken to about the usefulness of boxing have stated that it struggles when they are closed down. ie when someone clinches them, they can't use their big hits.

As Troll Virus mentions, boxing is a sport, same as BJJ and Tae Kwon Do. Yet they can be used in certain scenarios.

As my Sifu mentions, if you are in a self defence scenario and you are up against a six foot five, 20 stone guy, why would you want to stand and trade boxing punches with them?

I don't want to enter the whole debate of 'wing chun is for small guys vs. big guys' etc. The point is that boxing is useful. And yes you could go into a pub fight, jab/cross the guy and floor him. Other times he will grab you and throw you like a rag doll.

The point was that wing chun will do a million times better in that scenario.
Similarly, if I got in a ring with a boxer and just used wing chun I would probably get flattened

[jubaji]

The point was that wing chun will do a million times better in that scenario.

You were really improving until you got to this part.

[Red Rum]

You were really improving until you got to this part.

Well I'm awaiting your counter argument...

If you are saying that from close quarter positions wing chun will not do better than boxing, I might as well give up. The whole point of the wing chun system is to fight close quarters

[Troll Virus]

If you are saying that from close quarter positions wing chun will not do better than boxing, I might as well give up. The whole point of the wing chun system is to fight close quarters

Why do you feel the need to make the comparison?

[Red Rum]

Just because many people are discussing mixed martial arts and the use of boxing rather than wing chun on this forum (you have to go back to the beginning and read through).

Boxing is good, but like all arts - some things work in certain situations and some things don't. I would freely admit that if I faced a grappler or someone who was sparring me, wing chun would not work. It is meant to be an explosive system that does not move round the opponent for several minutes before taking a shot

[Troll Virus]

Personally, I think the whole world's gone mad.

It's been a very very long time since I had a mindset even remotely inclined to believe that MA are like Trump Cards, where you compare stats and there's always a winner.

Daft thing about me is, where everyone else who has acheived [hallelujah]enlightenment[/hallelujah] dismisses forum discussions like this as e-bickering, simply not getting involved, but for some reason I still do.
Why?
I don't know why exactly, but maybe it's because I've gotten a lot out of MA, in all of it's diversity.
Maybe I can save others some time, or hope they'll be equally enriched.
Maybe it's because I dislike seeing people dissillusioned with their practice because someone with a huge ego feels it's their perogative to bully them out of it.

To those practicing Wing Chun, teaching Wing Chun, pretending to practice Wing Chun, pretending to teach Wing Chun, interested/disinterested in Wing Chun I'd say this;

All any MA are training for is a hypothetical maybe.
My hypothetical maybe is most likely going to be resolved by me picking up a brick and smashing someones face to peices.
That, only when every other avenue of conflict resolution has been explored.
Most often, the only reason we get into trouble, is if our ego won't let us walk away.
To me, that is the most important thing I've gotten out of MA.
Full comprehension of violence and it's relationship with my ego.
I've gone through phases of believing different things, and no doubt my beliefs will continue to change.
I've had the fortune to train in many different MA, with some of the top people in their fields.
Not one of them didn't say something stupid or incredibly unrealistic about their art or ability.

I'd like to tell you what I personally got out of Wing Chun;
I've always cross-trained different systems, first becoming aware of Wing Chun via training in an early JKD/Inosanto spinoff system called Agonistics.
Many years later, in a job which meant I had to cover huge distances every day, I made the opportunity to train with Sam Kwok in Blackpool, some 200 odd miles from where I lived.
Some significant memories from that time;

I think it was my second or third class, I was waiting outside and saw a guy struggling out of his car and into a wheelchair.
He then proceeded to powerwheel his way up and down the pavement back and forth. It brings a lump to my throat to this day, as he was warming up for the class. I only saw him there twice, but Sam spent a lot of time with him.
What art could be better for a wheelchair user than Wing Chun?
How fortunate are we to lack such disability?
How humbling to see someone accept/deny their disability?

My first class, I think Sam was a bit 'old school' with me and after having me work single arm Chi Sao, he put a bean bag on the wall and told me to keep hitting it.
Bear in mind, I'd trained other things, so I cottoned on pretty quick. He wanted to see how soon I'd get bored, so I just paced myself and switched off. I worked out if I hit it just right, the wall 'boomed', and the sound was through the whole room, eventually irritating Sam, who was trying to talk.
About 15 minutes later, he came over and we had a brief moment of eye contact, where I saw his annoyance, he saw my amusement and then I saw his.

A few classes on, I was doing Chi Sao with a fellow student, and without thinking, I used a couple of things from other training.
We had a brief discussion about that, and he came out with "It is a wise man who serves but one Master", to which I replied Bollocks.
Note that, this is not an attitude enforced by Sams teaching, simply the bullshit mystical mumbo-jumbo mentalities of many people that train in MA.
I don't hold any MA style responsible for the idiocies espoused by students of it.

A later class.
My partner had a wrist injury and Sam was performing Acupuncture on it, while I watched some of the senior students Chi sao.
One match was getting increasingly competitive and blood was drawn.
The senior of the two was asked for an explanation and lied about what had happened. His ego made him believe he was superior, so he shouldn't be getting hit, yet he was.

Probably the most memorable class, was where I found myself practically alone with Sam.
Instead of cancelling the class, he gave me one on one.
He also gave me the opportunity to question ANYTHING about the art.
I respect that.

Blasphemy if you will, I was intrigued by the structures and bio-mechanics of it all. Got some good things, got some new ideas and got respect for the art as well as Sam. Like I've said many times, I'm not a 'chunner' though.
While I enjoyed forms and Chi Sao, there is too much time devoted to those if all you're interested in is learning to fight.
That said, if you want to learn to fight, then fight!
Don't go to ANY kind of MA class.
Just walk into the wrong part of town, at the wrong time of night and do the wrong things.
You'll get your ego-check right there.

One final aside.
I also had the opportunity to train with Emin Boztepe.
For all the slating the guy gets, I was impressed by Emin.
What I did notice though, was that he was very intense in observing everyone.
As an invited guest he didn't know, I found myself under his scrutiny a few times.
We checked hands and he knew I knew something, but not what.
Why I mention that is, that I think Emin is always wary of the day when someone will inevitably assault or challenge him due to his past.
That's his ego-check right there.

One final memory of Wing Chun, relates to a sminar I attended, by Marc Denny of DBMA, hosted by Krishna Gohdania.
We were working Drive bys and various things, and Marc came over and tried to Lap Sao me, but my arm didn't move and I remember the surprise on his face, me being just a wee fella.
Marc manages to run his organisation and has probably the most hardcore form of testing there is, yet still maintain respect for other arts, because he knows, like anyone who isn't a blowbag, that there is always something to be learned from any MA.
Take the positive, forget the negative and please don't talk shit about things you don't have a clue about!

[Red Rum]

Well put and finally coherent statements.

I think you are taking me for an inexpereinced martial arts newbie (which in some ways I am), but I have done martial arts for 20 years and have seen many different styles.

I started in karate and did around seven years before moving onto kickboxing, judo, boxing and ninjitsu. I was introduced to wing chun when I was around 12 by my friend at school. At that time I was just a kid and explored wing chun as something to fight with. My tutor was not that good and avoided answers to questions. I then looked at London instructors, one of whom was Wai Po Tan who I found had misguided beliefs in the system and thought of himself as the best of the best. Indeed his forms were quite impressive but his other attributes weren't great.

I then joined Kamon at the age of 18 where at last I found a practical grounding in wing chun and the ability to incorperate other arts.

Sifu Kevin Chan was not only a highly ranked practitioner of BJJ and wing chun, but was exploring boxing, Muay Thai and other arts, while maintaining traditional wing chun in his schools

I found him to make a lot of sense and his attitude made a lot of sense.
The idea that if you fight a boxer in the street - don't fight in his distance, was a very simple concept but one that people forget. Similarly with BJJ - don't grapple with a BJJ guy!!

Since being in Kamon, I have trained in seminars with Sam Kwok (who I found to be a little arrogant for my liking although good at what he did), WT, Alan Orr/Alan Gibson, James Sinclair and even some of the representatives of Ip Chun's class in Foshan.

I have found varying styles of wing chun and all of them have different ways of interperating how wing chun shopuld be performed. The one I am most impressed with is Kamon as the students are friendly, hard working and realistic people. We have people from all different martial arts backgrounds but they are all train in a good way.

I will admit chi sao on occasion does get heated within senior students, but that is a minority. The majority understand that chi sao is about stick, angles, finding gaps and using footwork efficiently.

I always hold my door open to anyone who wants to train, regardless of what styles they have previously done.

What I would say is that when you train wing chun, you do wing chun. What is the point in using another technique in the middle of a wing chun drill? If you are free fighting, sparring, etc then fine - you should use what works.
But if you are in a class being taught techniques and you use something else, I just see this as either showing off or trying to hurt someone for the sake of it.

As I said before, I have respect for all martial arts, but people should understand that most martial arts are limited to certain environments/conditions.

It is like my friend always mentions - what would win out of a fight between a lion and a shark. It depends on where the fight is set/what conditions the fight comes under....

The same with martial arts. If you are up against a grappler in a confined space, you will struggle. If you are up against a boxer in an open space, you will struggle. There are obviously exceptions to the rule but this is generally the case